Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:02 Welcome to Chicago Musician. I'm your host, Shawn Stengel. My guest today is the second ever person I met in Chicago when I got off the boat back in 19, somewhere in the 19. And, uh, he's been a good friend and colleague ever since. I'm looking forward to reminiscing, catching up, and looking forward with today's guest, the wonderful Malcolm Ruhl, as you might imagine, with friends who've known each other as long as Malcolm and I have, we got kind of chatty. And so rather than edit the "uneditable", I decided to divide up Malcolm's story into two more palatable, bite-sized morsels of episodes, two episodes. So let's dive right in with episode one. Welcome, Malcolm Ruhl.
Speaker 2 00:01:13 Hi, Shawn. It's good to be here.
Speaker 1 00:01:15 I know it is. Everyone says that <laugh>, they're always shocked when it's so glamorous in my basement and kind of like shut into a corner.
Speaker 2 00:01:23 But your listeners should know it is a very glamorous basement.
Speaker 1 00:01:27 It's really a man cave with really no cave and very little man. But other than that, it is pretty cool. So, as I said in an intro I did for this, you're the second person I met when I arrived in Chicago in 1987. Do you know who the first one was?
Speaker 2 00:01:47 I asked you this question when, the last time you said that to me, and I believe it was Cathy Daly. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:01:51 Stage manager, right? Yes. Yes. And she was the stage manager for, what? two, three weeks when I arrived? Things was a-changin'.
Speaker 2 00:02:01 So all of that, I can't tell you those dates, but I do remember that you came at a time of change.
Speaker 1 00:02:07 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:02:08 The show ran for five years, so obviously there's gonna be some change.
Speaker 1 00:02:10 Right. So kind of in the middle of it, Jason Edwards was leaving. Okay. Linda Edwards was still there. Caroline Peyton was there, but leaving, and I believe Cathy Daly was the stage manager, but then Carol Chiavetta came back from L.A., she was running the L.A. production. She came back, which is why then Maggie came back and, okay, so that's the whole Pump Boys blur. So I've known Malcolm since 1987 when I came to town to do Pump Boys and Dinettes. He was the music director of that production, which ran five years? Did we go? Almost.
Speaker 2 00:02:49 It's four, four and a half.
Speaker 1 00:02:51 Four and three quarters
Speaker 2 00:02:51 I don't know. It was somewhere between four and five.
Speaker 1 00:02:54 So that's our natural starting point. But your Pump Boys started way before mine. Okay. So you music directed the Chicago production at the Apollo Theater, but many of you started on Broadway.
Speaker 2 00:03:10 That's correct.
Speaker 1 00:03:11 And I don't even, I don't know if you have any history with those guys before they got to Broadway or if you start at Broadway.
Speaker 2 00:03:18 I pretty much start at Broadway. I met them actually when they were off-Broadway. Okay. And that's when I got first got offered the understudy job.
Speaker 1 00:03:28 Off-Broadway?
Speaker 2 00:03:28 Off Broadway. And I just. . . for people who know the show, the Colonnades Theater, where it was off Broadway, <laugh>, it was the perfect space. It was (and you know, going to Broadway is a big deal and increases revenues and increases, obviously all of the productions that came after), but I was just mesmerized in this small little, I wanna say it was like 200 seats maybe?
Speaker 1 00:03:57 Did they have a set?
Speaker 2 00:03:58 They did, but the set was <laugh>, the set was so "New York apartment." I mean, it was about as big as this space you and I are in right now. This part of your basement <laugh>. Right. But everything was there. It was very busy, but in a really great way.
Speaker 1 00:04:14 Does the Colonnades still exist?
Speaker 2 00:04:16 I don't know the answer to that. I'm gonna guess no, but I don't know for sure.
Speaker 1 00:04:19 Okay. So this takes us back even farther. You're a New York boy.
Speaker 2 00:04:24 I grew up in New York. I was actually born in Columbus, Ohio.
Speaker 1 00:04:30 Oh, I'm sorry. <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:04:31 But we moved, I moved to New York when I was a year old to hit the big time.
Speaker 1 00:04:37 Um, you did? <laugh> It was your idea?
Speaker 2 00:04:40 No, but this is actually an interesting story. So, I was born in Columbus. My dad was an actor. It wasn't what he was doing for a living, but he really wanted to do that. And he wanted to study acting after he fought in the Korean War and on the GI Bill, he thought, I wanna go to New York and do this. He was in his late twenties, had a couple of kids. But you know, this is, he decided this is what he wanted to do. And so he moved first to New York. And then we followed, my sister and my mother and I. And within six months, the marriage was over. <laugh> But we were in New York! So I grew up in Brooklyn, which is where we they moved to and where we lived. And yeah, that's where I was until I went to college.
Speaker 1 00:05:41 So you went to PS-something?
Speaker 2 00:05:44 I went to PS 119.
Speaker 1 00:05:46 Okay. Which means nothing to me. But to your New York crew. Yes. <laugh>. And would you even recognize that area of Brooklyn now? Isn't Brooklyn completely different?
Speaker 2 00:05:55 So the last time I went back to the old neighborhood would've been the late nineties. And a lot of things had changed. I'm gonna say, on balance, not for the better. But the overall look of the neighborhood? If you just plopped me down there and said, where are you? I would know. <laugh>. Yeah. And now because of Google Maps, I can see what it looks like more recently. And it still has a lot of the same basic things.
Speaker 1 00:06:23 So is your neighborhood what's become like where the Nets play, the new arena, this and skyscraper that?
Speaker 2 00:06:31 No, I did live in that neighborhood for a while, but I wish I lived there. . .
Speaker 1 00:06:36 You wish you own property there, right?
Speaker 2 00:06:38 Exactly. But the street I grew up on was really interesting because it was a dead end street with almost completely factories. There were two houses on it. It was like <laugh>, I dunno, it was like the 1960s urban version of a business park <laugh>. But it was very industrial. And the rest of the neighborhood wasn't that way at all. It was a neighborhood, it was a Brooklyn neighborhood, not like the downtown Brooklyn areas that were largely industrial, but then became loft kind of conversion.
Speaker 1 00:07:21 So, were you in an apartment or a house?
Speaker 2 00:07:23 We were in a two-family house. Okay. We were the tenants on the second floor.
Speaker 1 00:07:27 Was it you and your mom and your sister and your dad and his new family?
Speaker 2 00:07:31 Well, and my brother, who was born in the middle of all of the previous conversation. So, it was my mom and us three kids.
Speaker 1 00:07:41 And did your dad ever become an actor?
Speaker 2 00:07:44 So, he was auditioning and I don't know, I could never get him to talk about it. But there was a family legend that he got a call back for 'West Side Story', but I don't really know if that's true. But he was pounding the pavement and going to auditions and things. And then basically found him himself living in New York with two families to support. So it really sort of. . . his aspirations kind of went into singing in church on Sundays. And he did that professionally for a while, then sang every Sunday at his neighborhood church.
Speaker 1 00:08:23 Was he a trained musician?
Speaker 2 00:08:25 He was not. Music was not his major, but he had a beautiful voice, the kind of voice that, you know, certainly everyone around him when he was younger (and he came from a very small town) thought "training? You don't need training!" <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:08:44 "You're a natura,l kid."
Speaker 2 00:08:45 Yeah, exactly. But its musical theater is what he really wanted to do. He wanted to be an actor, and he did straight acting as well. So, that dream kind of died with the financial situation that he had partly put himself in. And, of course, I didn't really know most of this until I was older,
Speaker 1 00:09:15 Thankfully. Right? <laugh> Yeah, for the most part.
Speaker 2 00:09:17 I mean, I knew that he wasn't there, <laugh>. Right. 'Cause we, you know, lived with my mom and he, they lived in Queens, so we would see him on birthdays and, you know, especially like Christmas and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 00:09:28 So did your mom go to work then?
Speaker 2 00:09:31 Once my brother was old enough to not have to have her full-time care, she did. First she worked for Chase Manhattan, and then she worked for Metropolitan Life where she worked for probably 30 years. But initially she worked from six till or maybe five till midnight. And so the neighbors would, various members of their family would babysit us until she got home. Wow. So I spent a lot of my elementary school days coming home to not having her home. And also then she would sleep a lot during the day. So even when she was home. . . it was an interesting
Speaker 1 00:10:19 Hmm. Did you like school?
Speaker 2 00:10:22 I hated school.
Speaker 1 00:10:24 Okay. And were you bad at it because of that? No.
Speaker 2 00:10:27 No, I hated school for the social reasons. I had a kind of a, I had a socialization issue as a child, and I didn't wanna leave the house. Like ever. <laugh>. Okay. And so school was stressful.
Speaker 1 00:10:48 You would've been great in the Zoom era. <laugh>You're just out of your time. Okay. Or before your time.
Speaker 2 00:10:57
Speaker 1 00:10:58 Were your siblings like that?
Speaker 2 00:11:00 Not so much. And I think that, I mean, I still don't know all the reasons for that, and I know that there are reasons for that, that I still don't know.
Speaker 1 00:11:13 <laugh>. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:11:14 And I'm just gonna leave it at that. Okay. But really it was music that socialized me. It was music that, that. . . <laugh> I think saved me.
Speaker 1 00:11:28 How did you get into music then?
Speaker 2 00:11:30 The same way that, uh, most of the musicians, or at least say rock musicians or guitar players of my degeneration that I know did. It was February, 1964 watching Ed Sullivan. Always watched it every night with every Sunday night with my family. And this band from England came on and girls were screaming and, but the music was, I thought was great. I thought it was really cool. And they were playing guitars, and they looked like they were having so much fun and whatever it was about that, I said, that's what I wanna do.
Speaker 1 00:12:04 So did you beg to get a, a guitar then? And,
Speaker 2 00:12:07 And in fact, I, for a year, I played on a plastic m and e guitar. It was like the, you know, the guitar you'd find at a toy store? <laugh>. Okay. And just, uh, I mean, we didn't have a lot of money, so it was like, yeah, maybe it's just whatever, you know how it is with kids. It's like, right. This is something they wanna do. Passing
Speaker 1 00:12:26 Fancy, perhaps.
Speaker 2 00:12:27 And I learned a bunch of chords. I, you know, from books and things, and I, I, I taught myself as much as I could for a year. And then my parents both decided, yeah, you know what? I think maybe he should do this. So he's doing something right. And so I got a wooden guitar, which I still own, which really was only one step up <laugh>. But, um, but I started taking guitar lessons and Oh, really? Yeah. At age. So I guess I was about 10. I just turned 10.
Speaker 1 00:12:56 So nothing affiliated with school music.
Speaker 2 00:12:59 Well, you know, I played the quarter in the fourth grade, which
Speaker 1 00:13:01 Of course I hear you were a standout <laugh>,
Speaker 2 00:13:03 I will say. That's how I learned, first learned how to read music. Um, so when I picked up the guitar, I knew what a re clef was, and I knew where the notes on the staff were. Okay. Which was helpful, especially for a guitar player, um, many
Speaker 1 00:13:17 Of whom don't read ever. Right.
Speaker 2 00:13:19 <laugh>. Um,
Speaker 1 00:13:22 That's funny. So then, did you have a good guitar teacher who got you jazzed, or?
Speaker 2 00:13:27 I, I did. Um, and in fact, the thing I loved most about him was he knew when it was time to hand me off to somebody else. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And he and I took lessons for probably four, four years from middle school into the beginning of high school from a, a wonderful guitar teacher who I did not nearly appreciate enough when I was studying with him, um, named Leon Block. And a lot of guitar players may know it's, his books are not as ubiquitous as they once were, but he, he wrote a lot of, um, a few method books, but mostly they were songs that were arranged in chord melody arrangements. So, um, and like, you know, that was sort of his big claim to fame. But he taught out of his basement in Brooklyn. And, um, he taught me that whole chord melody thing.
Speaker 2 00:14:23 But he taught me really a lot about music. Um, some of it sort of subtly and some of it a little more directly. Uh, when I got to seventh grade and we started getting our orchestra instruments handed out mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, my orchestra director in seventh grade decided I was a cellist. And so I, I started playing cello. Um, and, you know, I took, I really took to that as well. Uh, and also the whole different musical world that it opened up. Right. But it just turned out by accident or by, maybe there was a connection there that I, I, I, I, in fact, I thought there was, because my guitar teacher also taught, played cello. Okay. And he played in a string quartet. So he played real music. And, and <laugh>, you know, I started alternating one week guitar, one week cello.
Speaker 1 00:15:17 So now I'm curious. I was just about to say, well then guitar leads you to, like, you formed a band. Right.
Speaker 2 00:15:24 So I really wanted to play in a band for the longest time, obviously, that's how it all started. Right.
Speaker 1 00:15:29 But your social skills were all held
Speaker 2 00:15:31 You back. All I had was an acoustic guitar.
Speaker 1 00:15:34 Oh, right.
Speaker 2 00:15:35 And, um, I wanted to, you know, I wanted to play electric guitar and we couldn't afford it. And, um, I had a friend of my sister's, her family somehow came upon this great deal of these electric guitars and amps. Um, and, you know, they were really, really crappy, but they were really, really cheap. Um, and so my mom shelled out the money bought for $35, I think that we got a guitar and a little amp. And I started playing and I was like, okay, yeah, here we go. And then, I don't know, <laugh>, within a month, one of the tuning pegs broke. I took it into my guitar teacher and he said, yeah, yeah. You're not gonna be able to get this fixed. It's just too cheap. There's no stock parts that you can replace this with. So for the longest time I had a five string electric guitar. Oh,
Speaker 1 00:16:32 <laugh>. Yep. Yep.
Speaker 2 00:16:33 But it's, you know, I played in a band, it was like in eighth grade that lasted for like three months, you know, practicing in a basement. Yeah. Um, we had business cards made, <laugh>, and we learned That's enough. I'm gonna say at least four tunes.
Speaker 1 00:16:48 Okay. That you could play like part of a dance then. Alright. So then, um, this goes on all the way through high school. Do you keep studying? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:16:58 Um, and in high school I was in the orchestra in high school, and because of people graduate and you move up the ladder, I ended up being first chair cellist in my high school orchestra, which I have to say was, again, looking back, I realize now that was a bigger deal and something I should have put more time into than I did. Um, we had a, uh, our orchestra conductor had played base, uh, with the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra. I mean, we were really, really lucky. Um, and our band teacher was a clarinet who, clarinettist who played with the Pittsburgh Symphony. And we had all these instruments available at school. At school,
Speaker 1 00:17:48 Um, ah, the old days
Speaker 2 00:17:50 <laugh>. So, uh, I, I did invest time in that and I tried to, to to play guitar, which was all pop stuff, Beatle stuff. But then, you know, uh, the acoustic side of, uh, the sort of late sixties, early seventies, uh, Crosby, steels Nash, stuff like that mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, but on the then and all these tin pan alley tunes that my teacher was teaching me how to play chord melody on. Um, and I thought, I mean, you know, this is kind of fun and, but when am I ever gonna use this?
Speaker 1 00:18:28 Right. Can't see that connection yet. Yeah. And so in, in the meantime, do you have any connection to that island across the river from you?
Speaker 2 00:18:37 Not really. Um, you know, we, my, my dad and stepmom took us to see my first Broadway show in Manhattan, um, which was hair. And I don't think they knew <laugh> everything about the show when they took us. But as an eighth grader, I said, huh, this musical theater thing's pretty cool, <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:18:57 You don't have to wear clothes.
Speaker 2 00:18:59 Um, and, you know, we would go to, when we're really young, we'd go to the Thanksgiving Day parade. We'd, you know, occasionally go to a museum or, um, I mean, I was, I, we didn't have a car, so I lived on, I got around wherever I got around on public transportation. So it wasn't really that hard Right. To, you know, to get into the, into Manhattan. Um, but in high school, I somehow found, again, not of my own, it wasn't anything that I was looking for, but I found myself in a group of kids who were music nerds and, and would go every weekend to the Met to see the Phil Harmonic, to see Jean Pie, Ron Paul, Carnegie Hall to see anything, you know, and there would be like always be at least four or five of us and we'd go to see, because I mean, we lived in New York. Right. What we had available to us was the
Speaker 1 00:20:03 Best in the world.
Speaker 2 00:20:04 Yeah. You know? And so, but
Speaker 1 00:20:06 How did you afford that? Were there, like, so
Speaker 2 00:20:07 It was really, and that's the other thing that I never would've known except for this group of kids. And I dunno who started it or how they found out, but there were ways to get discount tickets and, um, standing room, like at the Met back then standing room was like 10 bucks, which is more than 10 bucks is now, obviously, but still, that's what it was. But we would go and then at first intermission, 'cause you know, it was really two or three acts or four sometimes <laugh>. Yeah. We'd go out by the fountain at Lincoln Center and wait for people to come out. And if it looked like they were not coming back, we'd say, Hey, can we use your tickets? 'cause a lot of people were subscribers only went because
Speaker 1 00:20:48 They had to be seen.
Speaker 2 00:20:49 Exactly. Right. And so once they were seen, they left and they had, you know, fifth row orchestra tickets. And sometimes they would say, sure. I mean, sometimes they thought, this is really cool. These kids really, you know. Right. And then others would be like, get
Speaker 1 00:21:06 Away from us.
Speaker 2 00:21:07 Get away. Exactly. So, but we, you know, because we were in a group, I, I think if I was by myself the first time I got that response, I would've been like, no, I can't do this anymore. Right. We were in a group and, you know, a very supportive group. And it was, we were challenging ourselves even beyond our amazing music department at high school. It was, um, you know, I would start to read the synopsis of every opera that we'd go to. See. I, you know, I started by, there was a great store on the, uh, west side near Lincoln Center called Paton's that had so much music, and they had orchestral scores. And I was like, that's the first time I ever actually had an orchestral score in front of me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I could, you know, learn about stuff that way. Um, but yeah, without this group of kids, I don't think that that ever would've happened.
Speaker 1 00:21:54 Are you friends with any of them anymore?
Speaker 2 00:21:56 I'm friends. I'm not close friends with any of them. I've kept up with, really capped up with probably one of them. Um, a couple of them I rediscovered on Facebook, but I'm not on Facebook anymore, so I don't keep up with them. Um, and I don't know, except for the one that I do keep up with, um, Henry Aronson, who is a, uh, Broadway music director, keyboard player. Um, he is the only one that I know of for a fact. Ended up making, you know, going into music as a career.
Speaker 1 00:22:31 Okay. All right. So let me flip back then. So you're in high school, this group doing cool stuff and playing a lot, it sounds like, on your own cello. So does this say, I gotta go to college and be a music major?
Speaker 2 00:22:49 Yeah. By that time I knew, I knew that music was and my life. And I have to say, one of the things that, that I reflect back on now, I, I rem you know, I, I, I think it stuck with me, but it seems more and more important to me now is there was one day I didn't practice as much as I should have. No.
Speaker 1 00:23:09 None of us did.
Speaker 2 00:23:10 And, and I will say, and I, I never wanna say this to students, but that was how I got to be a good site reader, <laugh>, to try and pull the wool over my teacher's eyes and think I'd practiced if I could, if I could sight read it at the lesson well enough, he'd think I'd been practicing. I don't think, I don't think he was fooled too much at time. Not time teachers too many. But there was one time that I was really struggling, and maybe it was, he could tell that I was, it was a, you know, maybe a few weeks that I'd been slacking off. And I remember he said something uncharacteristic of him, I'm in the middle of trying to play this thing. And he says, Malcolm, this is your life. And even though I kind of thought that, to have an adult say that to me, to say that, no, this is why you're on the planet.
Speaker 1 00:24:01 Wow.
Speaker 2 00:24:01 Was huge. And there are still times when, when I'm playing a show or playing something where I'm getting to the really hard part, I'm getting to the part that, uh, you know, I, I spent hours on these three measures. Right. But, you know, oh, here it comes. Here it comes. And that voice in my head, boom, gets me right through it. <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:24:21 That's a pretty great, uh, that's pretty bold in a, in a sense, but also insightful on his part.
Speaker 2 00:24:28 Yeah. And it's one of the reasons that I also think I, you know, I was really bad about keeping up with teachers. And, you know, once I got much older, much, much older, I thought, oh man, I gotta get in touch with these folks. And I have, I actually got in touch with my junior high school orchestra leader, because he was, he, he was huge for me too. But by the time I did that, and we had the internet, and I could track him down Leon Block, my guitar teacher had passed away a couple years before that. So
Speaker 1 00:24:59 It's, I, it's hard to overstate how important having mentors in whatever form is. I'm, you know, I'm just a kid from Northern Minnesota. But in Brainerd High School, we had a big high school. You know, I had 500 people in my graduating class. So we had facility, I
Speaker 2 00:25:18 Had 1100.
Speaker 1 00:25:19 Okay. All right. Whatever <laugh>. Um, small town in northern Minnesota, <laugh>. But the, you know, it's a lakes area, so there's not other towns around. So people came in from the farms and the lakes. So we had relatively big school system, which meant we had nice resources too. We had a good band, we had a good choir. We had a drama program and, and enthusiastic teachers who were paid well enough and lived in a nice enough place that they stayed. So I had people that, you know, saw whatever it was that I had or what any kid with talent had who would try to nurture us and give us experiences. I had, um, I think it was one of my elementary school teachers when, once I was in high school, but she was still in my life, but took me and a couple of students to the Minnesota Orchestra an hour away in St.
Speaker 1 00:26:12 Cloud. But knowing that, like we would, we would appreciate this in a way that other, it's the first time I ever heard an orchestra like that. And it blew my mind. I still remember they played Schubert's, unfinished symphony, you know, one of the most beautiful pieces ever. But just luck of the draw that people saw something in you enough to like, test you or give you a, an opportunity that others didn't get. I, I'm not sure how that worked. It's, it's a double-sided coin, I guess. They see something in you or hear something in you, like your father and his voice. People knew this was a voice, you know, and he got asked to sing, I'm sure. And other kids didn't. And, and did that. Ha So did that happen to you in high school, say outside of your, your school teachers and stuff? Or, or with them? Did they, they found this kid's got something.
Speaker 2 00:27:11 Well, so here's another, here's another junior high school story that, I mean, it was, it was a big deal to me at the time, but not nearly as big as it should have been. <laugh>. Um, my, uh, orchestra director, uh, I, and I don't even know, I don't remember all the details about how this all came to be when I reconnected with him and I had a long conversation with him on the phone. He remembered way more than I thought he would, which again, is like, right. I mean, he taught public school for 40 years at least. Right. And he remembered me. Yeah. Which to me was still like a, but I, he, he found out that I sang and I played guitar, and he actually put me on the program to sing and played guitar with the orchestra. Hmm. Um, as a, you know, as a soloist and
Speaker 1 00:28:01 Junior high.
Speaker 2 00:28:02 Junior high. Okay. And that was in eighth grade. And then in ninth grade, I had, I had started writing songs and I don't know how much conversation was going on behind my back between mother guitar teacher, the guy who owned the store where I was taking guitar lessons and my orchestra director, if any. But somehow he found out that I wrote songs and for my spring concert in ninth grade. 'cause we of junior high school was ninth, ninth grade was the last year of junior high school in
Speaker 1 00:28:35 New York. Right. In my my age too. 7, 8, 9 was junior high.
Speaker 2 00:28:38 Yeah. Yeah. Um, I sang one of my songs and he wrote an orchestration for the orchestra for it. <laugh>, how
Speaker 1 00:28:45 Cool is that?
Speaker 2 00:28:46 Um, and that, those kinds of things. And the aforementioned owner of the record store, um, was also, he was dabbling in, in, in managing bands and, and artists. And he, I signed a, a, an artist contract with him when I was 13. And he took me into the city to, uh, a recording studio and where we did a demo. And um, uh, those kinds of things were the affirmation that I needed that was like, oh, okay. It's not just that I wanna do this. Somebody, some adult thinks that there might actually be something here, <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:29:27 Right. And it seems like for you, it wasn't your parents saying that to you at all.
Speaker 2 00:29:33 So, so my dad and my stepmom, who was also a singer and an actress, and that's actually how they met <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:29:40 Kelsey
Speaker 2 00:29:41 Re um, they were really almost overboard supportive sometimes. Okay. Um, and my mom was supportive in like, yep, we'll get the guitar. Yep. Okay. He's really interested. We'll get the lessons. Yep. We'll figure out a way to, you know, we did actually rent a cello for a while and all the things that I needed to do. Um, but she was always very skeptical about whether I could make a life out of this, make a living out of it. Right. And I think it was a really good balance for me because, you know, just parentally, I had one side saying, you're the best <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:30:20 Right.
Speaker 2 00:30:20 And the other one went, eh, it's a really tough road. You know? Yeah. And I think that that balance just stayed with me. And I think you need both of those things. Yeah. It's to, to make a living pretty healthy in music.
Speaker 1 00:30:34 So then how did you get, how and where did you go to college?
Speaker 2 00:30:39 I went to co. So I'm, I'm going to high school in Brooklyn at this huge high school. Like I said, we had 1,150 kids in my graduating class.
Speaker 1 00:30:47 So as your music got better, did your social skills Yes. Life get better? Yes.
Speaker 2 00:30:51 Um, and as I must have somehow intuited from the Beatles on Ed Sullivan, those two things go hand in hand.
Speaker 1 00:30:59 <laugh> Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:31:00 Screaming
Speaker 1 00:31:01 Girls.
Speaker 2 00:31:01 But also finding that group of kids in high school, that was, I mean, it opened up me up to so much music, but, you know, it also, those, it was the hour long subway rides together. And the talking about, i I, the idea that we'd be talking about, you know, pacini as 16, 17 year old kids. Right, right. Of, of our own accord. Nobody said, this is what we're talking about today.
Speaker 1 00:31:26 What's wrong with you? I mean,
Speaker 2 00:31:27 So those were, those were really important relationships at the time. And I think the other thing that it was, I mean, I've just, I discovered in an, as an adult that I think I'm an introvert, and introvert doesn't mean you wanna be by yourself all the time. It just means that you thrive in small social situations better than in huge ones. Right. And my high school was huge. I, uh, I played in the orchestra for graduation, and I remember looking out and going, I don't know any of these people <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:31:56 Wow.
Speaker 2 00:31:57 And, and the truth of the matter is, once they, you know, started calling names, um, I, I, you know, I recognized a few, a few people, but it was like, there were so many people I was gonna school with every day. I had no idea who they were. So I, uh, most of my friends were applying to state colleges, uh, suny, you know, New York State universities, and a, a lot of it for financial reasons. Yeah. Um, and I just, I thought even in the social group that I had, uh, I didn't wanna move high school to a dorm <laugh> and be with the same people. Right. And doing this, you know, I wanted something new. I wanted something that would challenge me. Um, and, uh, again, something that I never would've, if I hadn't found music, I probably wouldn't have even gone to college <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:32:49 Right.
Speaker 2 00:32:50 But, um, just out of the blue, you know, my P S A T scores were pretty good. And, and out of the blue, I got this, uh, you know, you get mail from these different colleges, and this one came from Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And I'm like, well, that sounds fun. <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:33:08 Which no one else ever said ever. But,
Speaker 2 00:33:11 Um, co
Speaker 1 00:33:12 College.
Speaker 2 00:33:12 Co college.
Speaker 1 00:33:13 I forgot this part of the, I knew it, but Okay.
Speaker 2 00:33:16 Uh, and my friends thought I was crazy. First, they thought it was a joke that I was even considering it. And then I was still talking about it. And they're like, ah. But I was, I was, I applied to Northwestern. Um, I wanted to, I knew, I think by my senior year that I wanted to be a composition major. I was already writing, I was <laugh>, I was, um, borrowing from Tchaikovsky and writing orchestral stuff. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, and, and I also applied to the Boston Conservatory. So, uh, very few schools at that point had a composition major for freshmen. You had to apply on an instrument or, you know, voice or whatever, and then performance establish yourself. And then if they offered a major in composition, then that was something you would have to, you know,
Speaker 1 00:34:02 But you knew already that youth composition was,
Speaker 2 00:34:05 I wanted to, you know, I started writing songs when I was like 12 or 13. And then when I started, you know, playing cello and got into the, the, the orchestral music and the concert music and going to, to hear music, I really, that was something that I felt like, no, this is really what I wanna do. I had not yet discovered that PE composers were no longer writing music like Tchaikovsky <laugh>. Um, and that's, but that's one of the things I learned in college. Anyway, I, I, I <laugh>, I was actually in the band director's basement recording my audition for Northwestern. And, uh, he did that for the kids, which was another great thing. They just had a reel to reel. And anybody who was auditioning for college, that was, you know, amazing. We couldn't do it on our iPhones back then. Right. So I went down there and I was playing <laugh>, one of the Bach cello suites.
Speaker 2 00:34:56 And he, he just stopped. He goes, you're not ready for this. And he kinda lectured me a little bit. He said, what are you doing with your time? This should be your focus. And I was doing all kinds of musical things, and this was just one of them. So, yeah. I was not a cellist in that sense. Um, he was right. It hurt at the time, but he was absolutely right. So I never made that tape. So that application never went through. Um, and the Boston Conservatory, I applied as a guitar major. Of course, it was classical guitar. And I had not studied classical guitar, but, you know, I thought I would give it a shot anyway, but they didn't offer financial aid for freshmen.
Speaker 1 00:35:38 Oh.
Speaker 2 00:35:38 And it was if expensive school <laugh>. Right. Not by today's stage, but Right. It was expensive. And probably out of our, you know, certainly practically out of my, my financial range. And just like a week before that audition, I got my acceptance Toko, and they were giving me like 75% ride. And I went,
Speaker 1 00:36:00 I away. Here I come.
Speaker 2 00:36:02 Um, and I, you know, I really didn't know what to expect, but I was also at a point in my life where that was kind of cool.
Speaker 1 00:36:11 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:36:12 And, um, yeah. So I went to co which had fewer students in all four years than I had in my graduating class. Right. Um, but they had a good music department and some really good faculty. Um, I pretty much wasted my freshman year, um, the way
Speaker 1 00:36:29 Many do <laugh>. Yeah. Well, you must have had, like, okay, small college, but you're in Iowa, even though you're an Ohio boy. Um, that must've been pretty eyeopening for,
Speaker 2 00:36:43 It was. I mean, it was
Speaker 1 00:36:44 Did you, did you go to the campus before you attended school? Nope. Nope. Just Hello
Speaker 2 00:36:47 Was, you know, we didn't do that in those days unless the only people I knew who did that had a lot of money. Yeah. Um, and so I can, I still remember the shuttle from the airport. 'cause Cedar Rapids is a city at the time, I think it was 120,000 people. It's bigger now. Yeah. But we're driving for the, the, in the shuttle from the airport. I'm like, oh my God. Don't let that be the campus <laugh>. No, no, no, no. I hope it's not there. 'cause you know, it's, it's an, it's an agricultural industrial city. Right. It's where they process all the things that come from the farms. Right. So, um, and then we landed on the campus, and it's a small campus. Had a nice quad though. And the buildings were endearingly vintage. Right. And, um,
Speaker 1 00:37:32 Did you, so you were in a dorm all four years? All
Speaker 2 00:37:35 Three years. Three years. Senior year. I lived off campus.
Speaker 1 00:37:38 And did you have a awful roommate or a good roommate? Oh,
Speaker 2 00:37:42 God, we, that's a whole nother Sean. That's another episode. <laugh>. Okay. Um, yes, I had some roommate issues.
Speaker 1 00:37:50 Uh, most of it, most
Speaker 2 00:37:51 Of us, they made me a better person.
Speaker 1 00:37:53 Oh, better than what? Well,
Speaker 2 00:37:56 Whatever. That's, that's what the housing director said would happen. Um, but so
Speaker 1 00:37:59 It, but overall it was a good experience. You
Speaker 2 00:38:02 Overall it was a good experience. There were some things that that Sure. That did not, that wasn't perfect. And, you know, especially my freshman into my sophomore year, I, I sort of was second guessing, really. Should I come here? In fact, I applied as a composition major at the end of my freshman year, applied to Oberlin. Okay. As a composition major. Didn't get accepted. But just at that very moment, my com my, well, he wasn't my composition teacher yet, but one of the faculty members there who was a composer, a commissioned composer, you know, wrote all kinds of things, orchestral things and others chamber music. He said to me, you know, we're starting a composition major next year. And I s and at first, uh, he found out that I had applied to Oberlin and he wanted to keep me. Which again, that was another thing of, well, maybe
Speaker 1 00:38:56 An adult sees something in me. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:38:59 Um, and 'cause I had started playing some of my music freshman year, and I think I opened some eyes with that. And, um, so then when I didn't get into open line, I said, sure, <laugh>, let's do that. Well,
Speaker 1 00:39:12 Iowa had never heard fake Tchaikovsky written like that. I'm sure.
Speaker 2 00:39:16 <laugh>. I was actually already into my, uh, it was more like, um, I dunno, pul or
Speaker 1 00:39:24 <laugh>. Okay. So when did, so when did piano come into this mix? So,
Speaker 2 00:39:29 <laugh>, this is, this is one of my regrets in life, is that we, I did not take piano lessons until it was required of me as a music major. Right. To, you know, to as a, as your applied minor. Um, but we had a piano in the house from the time I was, about the time I started playing guitar, my mom bought a piano. My sister took piano lessons. Okay. Um, again, it was like, well, you gotta pick. Right. 'cause we can't do everything. So. Right. Um, but then, because I could read music and I realized that my ear, I could sort of pick things out by ear. I could play stuff on the piano. And, and of course I knew how to read. Right. Um, and because I played cello, I could read bass cleft too. So I Oh, wow. You know, <laugh> two hands. I, um, started sort of writing on the piano as well. But it was very, you know, I was very limited by what I could do. Um, because I had nose, I had zero technique. Um,
Speaker 1 00:40:27 So that's why you wrote La Mis <laugh>, but Ching. Okay. Sorry. Um,
Speaker 2 00:40:31 I will say for reasons that seems so ridiculously eccentric now, because I was buying scores, I learned the first 12 bars of the Tchaikovsky piano Concerto.
Speaker 1 00:40:46 Fantastic. <laugh>. So for all the mini concerts where you only do like the intro,
Speaker 2 00:40:53 Um, but I did, I was writing, and this orchestral stuff I was writing, I was writing at the piano. We didn't have mini or finale <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:41:03 And barely any piano strings. But aside from that,
Speaker 2 00:41:06 Um, so it, yeah. It wasn't until college that I actually started learning how to play.
Speaker 1 00:41:11 Yeah. Well, I, I'm, I play piano now too. Right. But I was a trumpet player in college.
Speaker 2 00:41:17 That's right. I remember that.
Speaker 1 00:41:18 And it's a lot of hours on your major instrument. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So the thought of like, putting in time on a different instrument for me, it just became, well, piano became more useful for me playing for other people. Oh, you can read, you can, can you play my jury? You know, can you play my voice class? And then, you know, in the world of musical theater, like who needs a trumpet player? You know, pop, pop.
Speaker 2 00:41:44 Well, clearly the whatever led you up to where you got to piano wise in college was way beyond me. 'cause nobody ever asked me to play for them.
Speaker 1 00:41:54 Oh, okay. Well, you know, but no, I carry, I walked around with my own Steinway so people really could see that I, no, that, I don't know. I don't know how it happened, but, um, alright, so we're gonna take our short break now. So we have a long way to go with Malcolm Rule because we're just leaving him in college. That's
Speaker 2 00:42:13 Most of the interesting stuff.
Speaker 1 00:42:14 Is it? That's the interesting stuff. Okay. Maybe we'll take a longer break here, do some coaching and, you know, some gossiping and get that going. Um, but well, no, we gotta get you to Broadway into Chicago and what you're doing now and all that kind of shit. So we're taking our break. We'll be right back with Malcolm Rule after the, today's interval was brought to you by and heard by no one really, or very few. Uh, but it is the first appearance in the interval of the harmonica. I told Malcolm to bring whatever instrument he wanted to play the interval, and the smaller, the better, just for convenience sake. And he's a clever man. So our interval on the harmonica. Well, we're back in action. That was Okay. As I said, two notes, Malcolm, and you're like, well, an interval is played together when you're Well, that's harmony. It it is harmony. It is an interval. And even though you bent it, so bending the rules, it almost was like four notes, but resolved to two. But
Speaker 2 00:43:43 The interval stayed the same.
Speaker 1 00:43:44 That's okay. Kind of. Yes. And who taught you that beautiful technique?
Speaker 2 00:43:48 John Foley.
Speaker 1 00:43:49 Okay. Another pump boys, uh, reference. So, um, yeah. Beautiful though. That's
Speaker 2 00:43:55 John Foley was my pump boys mentor.
Speaker 1 00:43:57 Well, Foley got good on the, on the harmonica too. Oh, he was really good. Yeah. Yeah. Did you ever get to that level? No. You know, Howard Levy? No. No one is <laugh> and those who know, know that they know. And
Speaker 2 00:44:11 Are you, Howard Levy is one of the most amazing musicians I've ever heard play. But to try and be what he is and do what he does is it's not something that most people would aspire to. <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:44:25 No. Like, it seems like a lot of time by yourself in your basement, most of your life in your basement with a
Speaker 2 00:44:31 Harmonica. Yeah. I don't know how, I don't, I have no idea how he does the things that he does with a harmonica or any of the other
Speaker 1 00:44:38 Multitude of instruments. Instruments he plays. Yeah. He's blown a lot of people's minds. Um, so let's get, get us up to Foley somehow. So you're in co college, not too much damage to you done,
Speaker 2 00:44:49 In fact. Yeah. And the, the great thing about going to a small school was that once they said, okay, maybe he knows what he's doing, maybe he's got something. Was that as a composition major, I had to have an applied major, but nobody said it had to be the same thing every semester.
Speaker 1 00:45:07 Okay.
Speaker 2 00:45:08 So I changed one, one semester, maybe two. I was a voice major. Uh, I was a viola major for a semester. Oh.
Speaker 1 00:45:15 And admitting it on the air,
Speaker 2 00:45:17 I was a cello major for a couple of semesters. And then my, my final semester, uh, of my senior year, I was a trumpet major.
Speaker 1 00:45:27 Wow.
Speaker 2 00:45:29 Um, and I would practice in the basement of the house where I was living and I would regularly pass out. So that, that one didn't really go anywhere, but it was great experience. I'm glad I did it. Right. Um, but you know, as a composer, it's great to know as much as you can about all
Speaker 1 00:45:44 These Oh no,
Speaker 2 00:45:45 Absolutely. Different instruments and how
Speaker 1 00:45:46 They work. I was a, I have a education degree from the U so I was, I had to take, you know, instrumental techniques, you know, I played the violin horribly. I wanted to play cello, but I didn't wanna haul it around the world's biggest campus, you know, so I played violin. But like playing flute horribly tells you something about what it's like to play the flute, even if you can't do it. Even playing a string instrument, I think as a conductor I'm like, okay, there's a, there's a physicality that I can imagine, even though I can't do it. You know, vibrato to me was the breaking point. Tuck your elbow under and then relax that wrist and do vibrato. And I'm like, shut up <laugh>. I'm playing piano from now on. That's ridiculous. But yeah, knowing the more you know it, it's surprising the way that it feeds into what you need to know or absolutely. What you can use eventually.
Speaker 2 00:46:40 Absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:46:40 It's the pump boys thing for me. Who knew that I was gonna, you know, with Lmm where you have to do all those crazy things, what parts of my life led me to having that combinations of skills? Pretty bizarre. So did you graduate
Speaker 2 00:46:54 <laugh>? So I'm, this is, I am amazed that my parents did not disown me. Um, I, so in, during my senior year, um, I, so I, the other thing that being a composition major and changing my applied major and all of that, and in this little school I ate up playing and singing in any ensemble I could. So I sang in the concert choir. I sang in a magical group. Um, I played in the jazz band. I played, they had a chamber orchestra. It wasn't big enough to have a symphony orchestra. Um, played in a chamber orchestra. Um, and then my senior year they started a show choir <laugh>. And, which is a thing I didn't really know anything about, um,
Speaker 1 00:47:37 Me either until Glee,
Speaker 2 00:47:39 No. And, but they needed a band.
Speaker 1 00:47:42 Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 00:47:42 And so I basically, I went to the, the director who was a, I mean, one of these people who you meet and like, after two minutes he's your biggest fan and he, you've known him forever. Um, and I just said, I don't know who you talked to already, but what do you need? <laugh>? Because I fancied myself a multi-instrumentalist. I thought, well, whatever. He said, we don't have a bass player. And I said, yeah, I've kind of fooled around on the bass as a guitar player, but I'm, I'm game. If you can get me a bass, I'll play. So he did. They got a bass. 'cause they didn't have an electric bass school. They'd known one at that time. He got a bass. And I started playing it for Collage <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:48:22 I love it.
Speaker 2 00:48:22 And, um, also it was great because I got to do arrangements for them. So that was, you know, that was some great, really good experience. But the more I played the bass, I went, this is it. This is what I've been looking for.
Speaker 1 00:48:36 That was my next question. So wouldn't you say bass is it for you now of, of what you play or?
Speaker 2 00:48:44 It's, it's interesting because, um, for reasons again, that are, that the universe has, has passed out, what instrument I'm gonna play. Um, I'm not playing bass as much as I used to off, I do a lot of off loop theater. Right. And the bass actually turned out to be one of the first instruments to go because the keyboard player, one of the keyboard players can do that with their left hand. And there's actually shows being written that way now where there's not actually a bass player. Right. Um, so, and because I, I do play guitar and maybe a couple of other instruments, it's like, oh yeah, that's what we want. Why don't you play guitar and play some banjo and you play accordion. Right. And Right. You know, so it's been more about that than every now and then I will get a, still get a bass gig. Um, and if you sat me down at a pit and asked me to sight read something, I better have a bass in my hands. <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:49:37 Okay. So the strength. So, um, okay. But your parents are gonna kill you because, because
Speaker 2 00:49:42 My senior year after I got this bass and said, this is what I wanna do, some of the musicians that I knew from school put, we put a band together. Um, and in fact, I was keyboard player in one of 'em, and our bass player left and we knew another keyboard player, but we didn't have a bass player. Okay. I had a bass I borrowed Right. To do these gigs. Um, and I was just having so much fun. And I was at school at that point studying, listening to and writing music that was much more like, um, <affirmative> Sheinberg or Stockhausen. Or <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:50:21 Okay. Out there. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:50:23 Yeah. Um, and then at night I'd be playing cover tunes, but dance music basically for people who are having a really good time. And I remember going to new music concerts in New York and, and looking at the audience, <laugh> Stone. And in the seventies it was, so, it was the, the audience was divided between, this is ridiculous. I hope this goes away soon. What new music, new music is what they called it at the time. Then there was the audience like, I don't quite get it, but I'm gonna keep, I'm gonna keep at it till I do, because it's part of it, it my career depends on it. Right. And then there's the people who were, you know, um, who weren't musicians who were just, why did they put this stuff on the program? Right. What is this? You know, it sounds like noise. And then I won't say that I enjoyed everything, but I was, I just felt like I, I looked at the audience and I went, Hmm.
Speaker 2 00:51:26 And then I looked at the audience <laugh>, who was at the clubs dancing to the music we were playing and, and loving it and cheering. And, and I thought, oh, it looks like more fun <laugh> for, even though, for everyone. I, even though I was one of a small percentage of people who the first time I heard Berg's, Piero Lumier, I went, oh my God, I, I'm in a whole nother level. A whole nother universe. This is unbelievable. This is, you know, but I also knew the only way I was gonna make a living doing that was teaching. And so at one point I was getting my applications ready for graduate school, you know, so I could, I could go ahead and do that. And that's the point where I was playing at night and going, nah, nah. And I was still writing songs. Another thing I got to do was we had a, what we called a 4 1 4, um, curriculum schedule.
Speaker 2 00:52:22 Yes. So we had a January term where you took one class. Right. And they were cool classes. I took some really cool classes. But my junior year, I said, I wanna do an independent study, record an album. They had an electronic studio just reel to reel recorders and a one of those synth that you had to patch everything. Oh wow. Okay. Not even Moog <laugh>. And, um, and I got a friend of mine. We did this, that was our, our project. And even more amazing to me was that my senior years, I said, I'm gonna do that again. And they said, okay. So I found another friend and we did the same thing. And it was my first really, the first multi, it wasn't multi-track 'cause you record two tracks and then you'd bounce it while you were singing or playing the next track. So you mixed as you went and hope you got it right.
Speaker 2 00:53:09 Um, but, uh, that's, so I, I ca I went, I decided I gotta go back to New York. I was 21 and I knew I don't have that much time. Right. If I'm gonna make it big, you know, if I'm gonna get my foot in the door in this business. And I decided that that's what I wanted to do. I had fallen behind in my classes. I was a few credits short because my junior year I had a big fight with my music history teacher and I dropped the class. Um, it seems stupid to me now. Was it
Speaker 1 00:53:42 Over c r t <laugh>? Probably not.
Speaker 2 00:53:46 It was, it was over. He was teaching Grout was the textbook then that we all were studying music history from. And he was, he was an organist and a was obviously, oh, I have to teach music history, which is the sort of the thing that gets thrown on. Right. The lowest totem pole.
Speaker 1 00:54:03 <laugh> you teach music history.
Speaker 2 00:54:05 Um, so he obviously was not into it, so he kind of taught it by the book, but also really, I thought, dumbed it down and said things like Mozart wrote from his mind. Beethoven wrote from his heart,
Speaker 1 00:54:19 Oh, the end
Speaker 2 00:54:21 Kind
Speaker 1 00:54:21 Of, let's let's move on to proms.
Speaker 2 00:54:23 And, and I went, what? <laugh> <laugh>. And, and, and it, you know, we actually had arguments in class <laugh>. Oh. Which some teachers, you, the best teachers love, love that because they say, okay, we're engaging now and I'm gonna hold you accountable for backing up what you're saying and all that. But he was just like, well, no,
Speaker 1 00:54:45 <laugh>. Oh,
Speaker 2 00:54:46 So what I said,
Speaker 1 00:54:47 He's to blame for why you didn't graduate from college. Right. Okay. I love that. So,
Speaker 2 00:54:51 But I also thought, well, if I'm gonna do this thing, do I really need a degree? Well, there's, I got a lot out of those four years ago. Right. But do I really need a piece of paper?
Speaker 1 00:55:00 And have you been held back by that? Not so,
Speaker 2 00:55:03 For 20 years.
Speaker 1 00:55:04 Too much.
Speaker 2 00:55:04 Didn't matter at all. Yeah. Nobody ever asked for it. Nobody, nobody cared. Right. It wasn't until I decided I wanted to teach that Oh,
Speaker 1 00:55:16 Teach at a college level. Probably
Speaker 2 00:55:18 That's what I wanted to do. But if you wanted to teach anywhere, you really had to have at least the bachelor's degree. And I never took education classes, music education classes. 'cause I never wanted everybody, most of the department was Yeah. But you know, I wanna have something to fall back on. Yeah. And I thought, if I have to have something to fall back on, I don't want it to be teaching
Speaker 1 00:55:38 No
Speaker 2 00:55:38 Public school.
Speaker 1 00:55:39 Well, I had a teaching degree and I fell out of it as quickly as I could. Um, or was pushed, I don't know. Um, so you go back to New York?
Speaker 2 00:55:46 So I go back to New York
Speaker 1 00:55:47 With a band or just No, well,
Speaker 2 00:55:49 Starting, I tried to go back with a band that was based around one of those independent studies and that we played all that summer after my senior year in Cedar Rapids. And I pro, that was the first time I ever made a living as a musician.
Speaker 1 00:56:04 Okay. You got paid enough gigs to Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:56:07 Okay. I mean, I was living in a right, at a shitty house in Cedar
Speaker 1 00:56:11 Living, in quotes. Right.
Speaker 2 00:56:13 But yeah, it was enough and that was huge. And I thought, you know, I can let, lemme go back to New York. And I know obviously it's a, it's a, you know, steeper hill to climb there. But, um, now's the time. And it didn't hurt, of course, that my mom still lived in New York. Yeah. So I had a place to crash. Right. At least, you know, when I got back. Um, and early on I hooked up with a producer who advertised in the Village Voice for songwriters who wanted to have their song demos recorded. And he got this thing where he would get all kinds of people who weren't performers, um, but wanted, had this song they wrote. And so he hired me to play on some of those recordings and then hired me to arrange a lot of them. So that was my first like session work, you know? Okay. Studio work, doing that kind of stuff. And, um, then I had a day job for a year as a So Feist at ascap <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:57:11 What? Okay. I, I know the words, but how does that
Speaker 2 00:57:15 Only in New York, what,
Speaker 1 00:57:17 What does it mean?
Speaker 2 00:57:18 I saw an ad in the paper and I went, what?
Speaker 1 00:57:21 <laugh>? Right.
Speaker 2 00:57:22 It basically, you spent nine to five listening to tapes, transcribing music from the radio. And I had a good ear and I could do, I thought I could do that. Um, but the interview test was a trip <laugh>. 'cause they played all different kinds of stuff. All different kinds of stuff, right. And, but knowing either through experience or intuitively or whatever, how to, like, I remember one of the pieces were like, da, but it was, it was like kind of orchestral. But I, you know, it was like, okay, I can hear the first note pitch of each of those 16th notes, you know, four 16th notes and then fill in with scale. It sounded pretty scale wise. So that was probably it. Um, there was, uh, yeah, there was literally all kinds of stuff that was, but you got hired, there was one piece that I said, this is it. I'm out, it was a, I don't even know who it was, but it was a free atonal, jazz,
Speaker 2 00:58:35 <laugh> saxophonist. And I did the best I could. What I didn't realize until afterwards was that that's all they wanted from that. 'cause there was no tonic. How could you even say that? This is what this is. Right, right, right. So, yeah. So I got the job <laugh>, because I, and I'll try and keep this brief, but the, the reason for that job was in those days before streaming, before digital anything, before computers even really. Right. Um, were in widespread use as cap who, which is a performing rights organization, is, you know, they would keep track of all the performing performances, public performances, and they would pay royalties based on that. Right. Um, but there was no way to, to make the, the radio station or TV station playlist into a database so that they would know exactly everything that was happening everywhere. Right. So they actually would send out auditors to Cedar Rapids, Iowa, <laugh>, or wherever, who would audit the books of the station because based on how much their revenue was, that would be how much they would have to, that percentage would be how much they would have to pay for access to the ASCAP catalog and ASCAP and B M I and to a lesser extent, csac.
Speaker 2 00:59:52 Those were the only performing rights organizations at the time. B M I did not do this, did not do what ASCAP did invest the money in, in, in this. But while they were auditing the books in their hotel room, they had a, a tape recorder that was recording at like one inch per minute. <laugh>. I mean, it was really slow as it all the, the quality was horrible what the radio station was playing while they were auditing the books. And then you had to listen and those, then we would sample, we, I mean, it was just a sample of what was going around in the country, but that was the, what they figured out the best way to get. 'cause they would go all over the country to all different kinds of radio stations. My job wasn't nearly as interesting as the office was. So the office was made up of like 25 people, most of whom were not ISTs.
Speaker 2 01:00:36 They were experts in country music, in classical music, maybe even opera, in jazz, in whatever. Um, and they would sit and listen to these tapes all day. And if they had something, I don't know what this is, they would go to one of the other experts and say, do you know this song? Because they would have to log it and keep track of it just so the royalties could get paid. At some point, it would get to where nobody knew what it was, especially if it was instrumental and there were no words. But even sometimes if there were words, nobody could find a title or, you know, could make, uh, again, because we weren't searching on computer. Right. So then they would hand it off to the soulist and it was our job to basically transcribe the first, I don't know, it was 1624 notes of the melody in Sulf Edge so that we could basically, it would all be, um, dough in, in, in relative, you know, and movable dough.
Speaker 2 01:01:41 Right. So that everything Dough was the tonic. Right. And so we would listen to the tune and write out the tune on an index card music stamp on an index card. And then we would label the card Dododo do Ray, and then put 'em in this huge card catalog and that in alphabetical musical alphabetical order. Oh my God. How, how. And first what we would do is we'd write it down and then we'd look, half the catalog was obscure things that we know what they are, but they're, we've got 'em cataloged by Sge. We go and look and see, is that it? No. Is that, oh, there it is. But if it wasn't in there, we couldn't find it, then it would go in the other card catalog, which is where this was in case anybody ever figured out what it was, they could pay back royalties.
Speaker 1 01:02:26 <laugh> what, like what a dinosaur system, but what other choice was there? Why? Well,
Speaker 2 01:02:33 B m I took everybody's word for it. I don't know how they did the sample thing, but I eventually was promoted to the TV department. And that's where I learned some, if you were, if you were represented by B M I and doing anything for TV that you wanted to be with B m I, 'cause nobody checked. And we would, we would listen to all kinds of shows and follow the actual log that the network had put out for what was being. And a feature performance by a star paid big bucks, 20 seconds of underscoring on a soap opera. Did not, it was a huge, you know, it was a different scale. Right. But sometimes thing, those little tiny nothing throwaway things were listed as feature performances, whether it was by error or somebody friend of a friend who, oh, whatever it was, we shut that down and we said no, that wasn't that. Wow. And the other interesting thing I learned was, at least back in those days, I dunno if it's still the same, but, um, anything that was on a broadcast would be paid. So, and you've heard examples of this where people even say the lyrics, oh, I can't say more than one line because we're gonna have to pay for that. Right. But it goes farther than that. I, I was doing a, a auditing a Monday night football game.
Speaker 1 01:03:56 <laugh> <laugh> of course.
Speaker 2 01:03:59 And everybody started, nah, nah, hey, hey, nah, nah. That was a performance every time that would be sung spontaneously by a crowd.
Speaker 1 01:04:12 Royalties
Speaker 2 01:04:12 At a sporting event. Royalties,
Speaker 1 01:04:15 <laugh>. Amazing. Uh, that's, I mean, it makes sense to hear about it now, but I, it's like how fantastically random
Speaker 2 01:04:25 And, and for the skill level that was required to do this, we really didn't get paid very well.
Speaker 1 01:04:30 <laugh>. And now we
Speaker 2 01:04:31 Got paid more than the people who were just identifying songs, but not much more.
Speaker 1 01:04:35 And now no one gets any royalties at all. That's right. <laugh>, even when there's computers to know how much they're paid, you still get 1 cent if you, you know, if you're Beyonce and if you're not, you get one quarter of 1 cents. And that's fascinating. A soulist, I feel like I, I under respected you all now all these years. <laugh>, if I'd known you were a soulist, I would've addressed you properly.
Speaker 2 01:04:59 It was a great conversation starter with parties. <laugh>.
Speaker 1 01:05:02 Yeah. And, and shutter down. I would think at some, maybe in less that nerd group of high school kids, <laugh> be great. Um,
Speaker 2 01:05:10 So I know that's not what
Speaker 1 01:05:11 No, I love, but like, what, you know what, but
Speaker 2 01:05:15 It's part of who I
Speaker 1 01:05:15 Am and pays paid your bills,
Speaker 2 01:05:17 Right? It did. And and that was my first full-time job that paid my bills. Yeah. Um, but I was still doing the occasional session work, you know, for mostly doing demo stuff, um, and auditioning for bands and things really, theater was not on my radar. And the only way in which it was was my friend Henry Aronson, who wa that's what he was doing. And every now and then, he'd call me and say, Hey, I'm doing the show. Can you play? And, you know, if, if I could, I I would. Um, but it still wasn't, I That wasn't, wasn't
Speaker 1 01:05:55 On your radar.
Speaker 2 01:05:55 No. Um, but I was,
Speaker 1 01:05:57 Had they re invented radar back then? <laugh>, I think. Oh yeah. In that era. They had,
Speaker 2 01:06:02 They had people running around looking at things and then they would come back and write it down on
Speaker 1 01:06:05 That's right. On Note cards,
Speaker 2 01:06:07 <laugh>. Um, so I had, I was taking electric based lessons from Rick Laird in Chelsea in Manhattan. Uh, and he was the bass player for Mount Vishnu Orchestra for many years. He, at that time, was playing ba, was playing in New York, sort of freelancing as a jazz player and pursuing his, his new, um, uh, well profession, which was photography. He did photography for a lot of album covers. And, but he was teaching and he lived like three blocks from me. So I thought, oh yeah, let me do this. Um, and I was playing with a band while I was still working at ascap. I was playing at, with a band, a blues band that, uh, you know, playing electric bass. And they were, they got a gig to go on tour with National Lampoons live show. And so I was like, yeah, this is great.
Speaker 2 01:07:08 And the whole time, you know, I moved to New York, I thought I should really start playing upright. If I'm gonna be a bass player, I should play upright. Um, and then, uh, you know, I had given notice at ascap and then I got a phone call from somebody in the band going, um, yeah. So we're going with this other bass player. I'm like, what? It's really, he plays upright and it's a, you know, it's a different sound and, and it's a different kind of music and, you know, it just feels different. And so, you know, and I said, I gave notice, I'm really sorry. Wow. Anyway, I was devastated. I went crawling back to ascap. They gave me my job back, which was great. But I said, okay,
Speaker 1 01:07:46 <laugh>, I, I need to, it's
Speaker 2 01:07:47 Time to play upright. Right. So I started taking upright lessons from, from Rick and really only took a handful before I either ran outta money or whatever. Um, but it was enough to get me started. How did
Speaker 1 01:08:01 You, how did you get an instrument?
Speaker 2 01:08:04 I, he actually directed me to where to get it. Okay. There was a place, uh, in the village, the base shop. Chuck Traeger was the guy who, who ran it. And I mean, he was like, it was New York, so everybody, if you, if you hung out there, which you weren't allowed to do, but if you did, you would see everybody sooner or later. Um, and so I bought, bought a bass there and started, you know, again, thinking I'm gonna play jazz. Right. And, um, I did play with some people, you know, learn some jazz standards, played some of those songs that Leon Block had told me that, I said, when am I ever gonna use this <laugh>? Right. <laugh>, there you are. Um, but then I discovered this kind of music partly through ascap, partly through the gig that fell through, um, Western Swing. I didn't know what that was. It was like cowboy jazz. Right. So it was like, oh, walking baselines some of the time. Anyway. And it had, it was swing, it had a swing feel to it, but it was like these kind of cowboy tunes and the history of it was all southwestern. You know, it was like Texas. And so,
Speaker 1 01:09:13 But so how did that come upon you in New York City?
Speaker 2 01:09:17 So, partly from somebody at ASCAP had turned me onto a sleep at the wheel. And I thought, this is really cool music. And then just answering ads that I always did, you know, um, in the Village Voice. And I started playing with this Western swing band and found out as I started doing that and playing different clubs with them, that there actually was
Speaker 1 01:09:39 A scene. A scene.
Speaker 2 01:09:40 Yeah. And, and it was, that was kind of the beginning of it. The, the urban cowboy thing in New York kind jacked that up, even though very few bands were playing that music mm-hmm. <affirmative> clubs that had a big enough dance floor to line dance or do any kind of even swing dancing. Um, and there were fiddles and pedal steel guitar that, that was, that's all you needed. And so we play the music that we wanted to play. Um, but yeah, I was actually, I won't say my entire living was from that, but that was the basis of it. You know, I was Wow. Playing with a couple of different bands. So we're talking
Speaker 1 01:10:17 What, what sort?
Speaker 2 01:10:18 19 81, 82. Okay.
Speaker 1 01:10:21 All right.
Speaker 2 01:10:22 Um, and, uh, and you know, I was playing with one of those bands when Jim won and a couple of other punk boys creators came by. Jim won, was actually friends with a keyboard player in this particular band I was playing in. And I didn't know it at the time, but whether they had done, they were still off Broadway. Whether they had done the typical audition thing or not, they were going around to clubs to find musicians who could play. Hmm. And then watching them on stage, figuring out can they, can they handle themselves on stage? So they were
Speaker 1 01:11:02 Auditioning you and you had no idea?
Speaker 2 01:11:04 I, I didn't know. Um, but they, they did stop in at, at one place I was playing. Um, and I got invited to audition and, and as a play, I was playing bass. So I went, they invited me to come and see the show, and I saw, I went to see the show and like I said, it was, to me, the closest thing I could, I could relate it to was Dan Hickson, his Hot Licks, which was a band I really loved at one point. Um, and I just thought, this is so cool. This is, you know, and there was some western swing ish kind of stuff, but it was really all kinds of,
Speaker 1 01:11:40 It is all
Speaker 2 01:11:41 Kinds, it's a mash of Americana. Yeah. And, um, but a lot of those kinds of music I'd played in bands and I went, yes, this would be really, really cool. They were looking for an understudy. Right. 'cause they were doing eight shows a week off Broadway with no understudies, and they were looking for understudies. My, I think for everybody, you know? Right. Um, so I went to see the show and, uh, <laugh>, for those of you who know Pump Boys and Dinettes, um, I was asked by the stage manager when I went to see the show, if I would mind being the volunteer to come up for the raffle in case the person who actually whose ticket they pulled didn't wanna come. <laugh>. Right. I didn't have to go up, but, oh, so you
Speaker 1 01:12:21 Were the, you were Oh, you were technically a stand. I was, you were a standby stand. You'd been asked for a stand.
Speaker 2 01:12:26 'cause I had not been rehearsed.
Speaker 1 01:12:27 Right. Exactly.
Speaker 2 01:12:29 Um, <laugh>. And so I went, uh, to the audition and I played the bass player doesn't, didn't sing, didn't act. Really everything he did was with the bass. And I thought, I can do that. Yeah. <laugh>, because I was not an actor. I had no acting training. Whether my dad was an actor or not, it was not in my right. D n a I didn't think. Um, so I went to the audition and I played some bass and they said, oh yeah, we heard you play some guitar. I said, yeah, um, would you would be willing to come back and play guitar? And I said, sure. And, um, do you play anything else? And I said, I play a little piano. And they said, well, yeah, plan on doing that too. And I went back and I auditioned, I played guitar, and I played piano. And, um, really didn't think anything of it. 'cause Mark Hardwick, who was the original LM was a, a just a, a phenomenal pianist. And there's no way that I could ever do that. So I knew that that wasn't on the table. And he played accordion and tap danced. And I'm like, that's, yeah. So I'm, I'm out. Yeah. So like a few days after the audition, they called me and said, so we wanna hire you to cover all the Pump Boys. And I'm like, what?
Speaker 1 01:13:47 You're insane or desperate.
Speaker 2 01:13:50 And, and I said, Ugh, I'm flattered. I don't know that I really am. We think you can do it. I said, understudy gig. You know, it doesn't have to be perfect, but you could, you could cover these parts, you know, we could get through the show. Um, and so I said, how much does it pay? And they told me, and I said, I can't do that <laugh>, I can't quit what I'm doing now. I mean, it would've been like a 60, 70% pay cut. Right. To make myself available. And I said, yeah, I would really love to do this, but I can't. But I was also thinking in my head, you're setting me up to crash and burn if I have to cover all these
Speaker 1 01:14:28 Parts. Right, right, right.
Speaker 2 01:14:29 So, um, they said We might be going to Broadway. I'm like, sure. In New York, that's like, we might be getting a record deal. Exactly. And people was like, okay. Um, well if that happens, call me. I, yeah. They said, would you be interested if we, and I said, yeah, I'd definitely be interested in talking if that happens. Um, 'cause I knew people were playing Broadway gigs and they were making pretty good money. Um, so I don't know, maybe a month later they called me back and said, we're gonna Broadway. You want the cake?
Speaker 1 01:14:54 Holy wow.
Speaker 2 01:14:55 And I said, um, yes.
Speaker 1 01:14:58 So you're like, I can't do this. Oh, Broadway. Sure. So you do Broadway. Broadway.
Speaker 3 01:15:05 Broadway.
Speaker 1 01:15:08 Broadway. What a perfect cliffhanger to lead us into part two of Malcolm Rule. Although, I guess it's not much of a cliffhanger, but he already said Yes. But how, how does it happen? That's why you gotta come back. So this has been Chicago Musician, I'm your host, Sean Stengel. Come back for part two of Malcolm Rule Broadway and Beyond.
Speaker 3 01:15:39 I.
