Sandra Donatelle

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Welcome to Chicago, musician. I'm your host, Shawn Stengel. Well, it's been a while since we've had a woman guest. Actually, it's been a while since we've had a guest. And so this woman is also a guest. So the best of both worlds. But she is my first duelist guest. What does that mean? Well, I guess we'll have to listen and see. I will say that it does have something to do with Canada. Please welcome French horn player extraordinaire, Sandra Donatelle. So welcome, Sandra. [00:00:55] Speaker B: Thank you so much, Sean. [00:00:57] Speaker A: I'm so happy to have you here. Yeah. [00:00:58] Speaker B: And it's lovely to be here. Thank you. [00:01:00] Speaker A: And I know you're going to enjoy it because you have to. [00:01:03] Speaker B: Okay. [00:01:04] Speaker A: Or otherwise you're not let out of the basement. [00:01:06] Speaker B: Oh, dear. [00:01:06] Speaker A: That's. So that's the price. Anyhow, welcome. This is going to be a fun interview for me because we haven't worked together. [00:01:14] Speaker B: No. [00:01:15] Speaker A: Almost. We know everybody in common, but we haven't really crossed paths professionally. So I'm gonna dig and ask questions. Cause I know, you know, sort of the shiny bubbles of your career and not much else. Okay, so how I'd like to start is, I know you had a big French horn career. [00:01:39] Speaker B: Yes. [00:01:40] Speaker A: In classical music. [00:01:42] Speaker B: Yes. Primarily. Yes. [00:01:44] Speaker A: And then. So how the hell did you bump over to musical theater? And where did that happen? [00:01:50] Speaker B: Well, I'm from Toronto, Canada. [00:01:52] Speaker A: Canada? [00:01:53] Speaker B: Yes, sir. [00:01:54] Speaker A: Oh, I don't. I have to check with the sensors. Is she allowed to be on here? Okay. There is a tariff. [00:02:02] Speaker B: Oh. [00:02:04] Speaker A: It's up for debate. Who pays. [00:02:07] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [00:02:08] Speaker A: I guess we'll figure that out later. Okay. So in Toronto. [00:02:11] Speaker B: Yes. Shows started coming in, I'm going to say, in the 80s. Right. I sort of. I got back to town in 1981. [00:02:24] Speaker A: Back to town from where? [00:02:26] Speaker B: Hong Kong. [00:02:27] Speaker A: Oh, my God. We have so much to cover, but let's say we skip that part for now. [00:02:31] Speaker B: Yes. [00:02:31] Speaker A: So you're back in Toronto. [00:02:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And actually moved into Hamilton, Ontario, which is basically almost connected to Toronto now, but just on the southern western tip of Lake Ontario. [00:02:44] Speaker A: I've been. It's that town where you're, like, driving and then there's a cliff and then there's. [00:02:49] Speaker B: That's right. [00:02:49] Speaker A: Downtown is down below. [00:02:51] Speaker B: Yes. The escarpment. You come off the escarpment down to the city. [00:02:54] Speaker A: It's funny, there's skyscrapers, but you can't see them from far away. [00:02:59] Speaker B: That's right. Until you get to a certain point. [00:03:01] Speaker A: And you know that Hamilton was popular before the current Hamilton. This is true, the musical? [00:03:07] Speaker B: Yes. [00:03:08] Speaker A: Although if you think about it, maybe the original guy Hamilton was popular before. Was he ever in Hamilton? [00:03:16] Speaker B: No, no, it would be different Hamilton. So I have no idea if they were connected in any. [00:03:20] Speaker A: Who's the Hamilton from Canada? [00:03:22] Speaker B: Oh, some. Some guy. [00:03:27] Speaker A: I love. This is so interesting already. So meanwhile, she. You've moved to Hamilton? [00:03:32] Speaker B: Yes, because my ex husband was an amazing trombonist and he got principal trombone for the orchestra apparently for one year. We were originally coming back to Chicago, but because he got the gig in Canada, we went and got found a place to rent in Hamilton and they needed an extra French horn as fourth horn and they, you know, they got a package deal. I was never contracted in the orchestra, but I played there all the time. Okay, so that's. [00:04:04] Speaker A: And they did a full season? [00:04:05] Speaker B: Oh yeah, full season. And you know, we played a lot of great things. The regular classical series, pops concerts, they had a really interesting new music concert series and they also did like a, you know, wine and cheese type nights where it was sort of lighter fare and be fun. It was a really good orchestra. And. [00:04:37] Speaker A: Did you do any touring of Canada with that or was that very little? [00:04:43] Speaker B: We did a couple renovations. Yeah, we went out to Ottawa once and there was some smaller parts. The main core of the orchestra was much smaller. And so they would go out, just do a few little run outs, but not really. It was basically stationed there. There are a lot of orchestras within southern Ontario, so an hour and a half up the road was Kitchener Waterloo. And so they had their own. Yeah, they had their own. And then Toronto was like so such a, you know, close jump away Toronto Symphony. And within Toronto there were other smaller orchestras as well. So. So there's really no need to tour there. [00:05:23] Speaker A: So that's how you got to Hamilton, playing with that symphony. So then what's the leap to musical theater? [00:05:30] Speaker B: Started coming into Toronto and I guess it was. I'm trying to think. I think it was finally Les Mis that I got called to sub and so I was subbing into Les Mis probably in the 80s. Phantom came in, that was a 10 year run there and I was a sub, but felt like I lived there. So I still kept base in Hamilton and I would and commuted. Oh yeah, I did a lot of commuting. And then there are other shows. A few of them I did on my own, like Anna Green Gables, a big Canadian musical. And I remember doing that at the. I don't think it was the Winter Garden Theater. I think it was our Elgin Theater. The Two theaters are in the same building, but I did. I played in a smaller orchestra that was. Aside from Hamilton, was based in Toronto. And we would do. It was like two horns, maybe a couple oboes, and maybe four firsts, three seconds, two violas, one cello, one bass. So it was really tiny. And we would do all these small. Mozart, Haydn. [00:06:39] Speaker A: It was lovely in Toronto, but still commuting from Hamilton. [00:06:44] Speaker B: Yes. [00:06:44] Speaker A: Okay. And did you ever move back to Toronto? [00:06:47] Speaker B: No. [00:06:47] Speaker A: No. [00:06:48] Speaker B: Never moved back. No. My family was there. My parents were there still at that time. [00:06:53] Speaker A: Okay, so let's back up then, since we're in family. [00:06:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:57] Speaker A: So born in Toronto. [00:06:59] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. [00:07:00] Speaker A: And went to school there. [00:07:02] Speaker B: I went to public school, was right around the corner, clearly public school. And my high school was W.A. porter Collegiate, which was about a mile away. You know, you'd walk there uphill, both ways, of course. [00:07:14] Speaker A: In the snow. [00:07:15] Speaker B: In the snow. [00:07:15] Speaker A: Barefoot. [00:07:16] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. [00:07:17] Speaker A: What did your parents do? [00:07:19] Speaker B: My dad managed a company that I guess the best way to describe it is they fireproofed gaskets for ships, the shipping lines on the Great Lakes. [00:07:33] Speaker A: Okay. Please listen to Shipping World podcast for more information on that. I have no. [00:07:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:40] Speaker A: Out of my league. Okay. [00:07:42] Speaker B: I used to love going there because I get. When I was little, you go up these. To the second floor, up these wooden steps. It was an old building, and I got to play in the, you know, the old typewriter and stuff like that. But in the back room, the guys were working with asbestos. [00:07:58] Speaker A: Oh, lovely. [00:07:59] Speaker B: Yes. So it was always floating around. And I do remember projects for grade school where you had to sort of build something. My dad would come home with a box of asbestos, and I would add water to it and build my little project. I'm still here. [00:08:16] Speaker A: Did he ever have health problems from that? [00:08:19] Speaker B: Yeah, there was definitely breathing problems, but never got completely diagnosed as asbestosis. But, yeah, he definitely wheezed and had trouble breathing. [00:08:32] Speaker A: Was he a musician at all? [00:08:35] Speaker B: My dad sang in the choir, but couldn't read a note and didn't want to learn. We all four of us tried to teach him how to read music, but. Oh, yeah, that's okay. So the choir director always recorded it. What, his part? On a little cassette. And my dad would play it and learn his part that way. [00:08:54] Speaker A: My dad tried to. He was in the church choir probably for 47 years. But I hated, you know, fathers and sons. Right, right. So he. He would always try to, like, lean over and listen to what I was singing. So I'd, like, lean the other way. And. And because he didn't read a note either. Not no musical training at all. But he loved to sing, Had a nice tenor voice. [00:09:19] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like my dad, but just. [00:09:20] Speaker A: Just sang along and could add his voice to a choir, but had, you know, eventually he learned, like, it was going up, it was going down, but I don't think he had much knowledge beyond that. But as a. As a bitter young man, I just resented that he had to lean over to listen to me. And it's so stupid in retrospect, the things I know. But that bug you, right? [00:09:44] Speaker B: Yeah, that's how you are when you're young. [00:09:46] Speaker A: So you say the four of us, four kids? [00:09:48] Speaker B: Yes. My eldest brother, Don, then came Bruce, then came me and my younger sister Ruth, who's five years younger than I am. Okay, so between eldest and youngest, there's 13 years difference. [00:10:02] Speaker A: Okay, so you all had sort of different experiences growing up in a. Yes, in a sense, yeah. [00:10:10] Speaker B: Well, getting back. Parents. My mother didn't play music or anything, which always surprised me because her mother was a pianist and, you know, like a professional pianist. Well, in the town of Leamington back In the early 1900s, I should think she played for the church and probably accompanied singers and stuff like that. And I just remember being told that when the musicians union came out, she was going to have nothing to do with that. [00:10:39] Speaker A: Okay. [00:10:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. I kind of went, wow, I wonder why. But anyway. But, yeah, my brother's experience, like, he was probably expected to be a concert pianist and still is, really great pianist, but in the age of being threatened by nuclear warfare and everybody building bombshells on the street and stuff like that, it was probably really traumatic for him. And he sort of. I only found out years ago that he sort of, at 16, took off for New York for a week. And I don't think my parents knew about it until he got back. But, you know, he said, yeah, I played in a few of the clubs. It was really fun. So, you know, he sort of went off sort of. [00:11:32] Speaker A: So he could play jazz and pop stuff as well. [00:11:35] Speaker B: I, you know, I don't think that was primarily. But yeah, I think he must have learned enough to get by. [00:11:43] Speaker A: But he didn't pursue. Pursue a career in music. [00:11:47] Speaker B: Yeah, he's a conductor, composer, did shows out west. [00:11:53] Speaker A: This is your. [00:11:54] Speaker B: My eldest brother. [00:11:55] Speaker A: Okay. [00:11:55] Speaker B: Yeah. And Edmonton in Calgary, the Theaters Citadel in Edmonton. He worked there for a long time, did a little bit stint in Stratford, Ontario. [00:12:05] Speaker A: Okay. [00:12:06] Speaker B: Yeah. So, yeah, a lot of shows in Toronto. Not necessarily mainstream, but pretty interesting stuff. [00:12:15] Speaker A: Okay. And was he influential in you going into music? [00:12:19] Speaker B: Well, definitely. He was instrumental in getting me to choose an instrument when I got to high school because I played piano starting when I was five. I didn't have quite the great teachers he had. And so by the time I was 13 and starting 9th grade, he had become my teacher of the piano. Of the piano at that time. And he would invariably have me crying at the end of a lesson. And so. And, you know, I don't understand why you don't know about this. I'm going. I was never, you know, I was not taught theory or anything like that. So when I got to, you know, choosing an instrument, he said, okay, there's hardly any oboe players around or any French horn players around, which is very funny because there's a ton. But anyway, now there's a ton. But so I said oboe. My Chester Poland was my music band teacher. And he said, no, you played piano too long. You're. You know. Because he knew the families of the French horn, I went, okay. [00:13:29] Speaker A: It's interesting, my brother. We started earlier in Minnesota, at least when we were kids, about third grade. You'd have to, like, pick a band instrument. [00:13:39] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:13:40] Speaker A: Or maybe fifth or sixth grade. [00:13:41] Speaker B: Fifth grade. [00:13:42] Speaker A: But he wanted to play French horn. And they're like, now we don't start on French horn. [00:13:46] Speaker B: Trumpet. [00:13:47] Speaker A: Nope. They made him play trombone. You got long arms. [00:13:50] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:13:51] Speaker A: You know, and he made it to. I think maybe through ninth grade he played and then. But he wanted to play French horn. And they're like, no, it's too hard. [00:14:00] Speaker B: It is hard. It's probably the. It's to do with the overtone series, where you play with the overtone. [00:14:06] Speaker A: So it is. It actually is kind of smart. And they're expensive, so I think they certainly are now. [00:14:11] Speaker B: I mean, I guess, relatively. I think my first French horn was probably, I think around $700, but that was in 1940. Yeah. [00:14:22] Speaker A: Okay. I don't know the time. I'm not good with numbers. Okay. Just a joke. Ancient. [00:14:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that was. [00:14:28] Speaker A: Would be period instruments. [00:14:30] Speaker B: 73. [00:14:30] Speaker A: That's right. Okay. [00:14:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:32] Speaker A: Okay. So you started on French horn. [00:14:34] Speaker B: I started on French horn, yeah. Which a lot of people start on trumpet. It's. [00:14:41] Speaker A: It's more forgiving. [00:14:42] Speaker B: Yes. [00:14:43] Speaker A: You press down a button and it makes that note. [00:14:45] Speaker B: Pretty much. [00:14:46] Speaker A: Because I was a trumpet player. [00:14:47] Speaker B: Yes, I know that. Yes. [00:14:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Back in the day. I think I remember the fingerings. Maybe I don't. [00:14:53] Speaker B: They're similar to F horn. [00:14:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:55] Speaker B: The F horn side. [00:14:57] Speaker A: I did enjoy playing. I Didn't enjoy practicing, but I did enjoy playing in the brass section and I was in marching band. And I guess you probably didn't march. No, we did not march as a French horn. Never had to play mellow phone. [00:15:13] Speaker B: No, my daughter did at Northwestern. But I did march with my French horn, which is just like, you know, every step you're bashing your mouth. [00:15:23] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like a Woody Allen movie then. Right, with the marching cellist or whatever that scene was. [00:15:28] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a marching cello. It's hilarious. [00:15:30] Speaker A: I was in the University of Minnesota marching band for four years. High stepping, Big ten style. Could there be anything worse? Your embouchure and like studying actual classical trumpet, like, so stupid. But I had so much fun. [00:15:46] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I know kids. My daughter had a tremendous time. [00:15:49] Speaker A: It's a. I mean, for me, it was like an instant social group at a College University with 56,000 people. Suddenly my social group was 300. [00:15:59] Speaker B: Yes. [00:16:00] Speaker A: A little bit more manageable. Yeah, so that was. That was a lot of it for me. Just the. But enough about me. There's a whole many other podcasts about me and me and then a little bit more me, so. All right. So did you have a decent music program at your school? [00:16:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, we did. We would, you know, do some run outs to other schools, but I'm gonna go back to just being given a French horn. So we were playing in band class and playing along, playing along. And all of a sudden my horn starts going. I'm going. And I'm looking at it and I look up at my teacher and he stops the band. He says, just pull out that slide and just dip it over. Of course I did. And it goes splat. And everybody goes, ew. And I go, oh, God, how come I had this instrument? So embarrassing. And I had bruises on my right knee all the time from carrying the case. Yeah, oh, yeah, the old fashioned cases. But yeah, we did. My first band trip was in grade nine and we went up north to some little town or something and I decided I'd drive up in a car with a bunch of my brother's friends that were in the band. My brother Bruce, who's just older than me, we were at high school together. So we're in the car and they said, have you ever had vodka and orange juice? I said, no, it sounds good. So I had no. [00:17:33] Speaker A: Oh, that sounds neat. [00:17:34] Speaker B: So I got out of the car and fell flat on my face. And I found it years later that they were all kicked out of the band but me. [00:17:46] Speaker A: Well, they need French horn players. [00:17:47] Speaker B: They needed a French horn player. [00:17:48] Speaker A: Plenty of the other ones. [00:17:49] Speaker B: Yeah. So I was. Yes. Anyway. [00:17:53] Speaker A: Oh, such a bad girl. In. [00:17:56] Speaker B: We went to Pei, which was great on the train. And we also went to New York. [00:18:01] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [00:18:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Which was a. We did a band exchange. And I remember that was fantastic. [00:18:06] Speaker A: So in high school, you went to New York? First time there. [00:18:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And I've only been sort of stepped my foot in it once since. I've really not been to New York. I've not seen Broadway shows. I know. It's just disgraceful. I know. [00:18:25] Speaker A: I don't know if I can talk to you anymore. Okay. I've recovered from that shock, but. Okay. Interesting. For someone who's played a lot of Broadway shows. [00:18:35] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, I've done a number. I mean, I wouldn't say a lot a lot, but I've done a fair number of Broadway shows. [00:18:42] Speaker A: Okay. So you're in high school. When you said earlier when we were talking off camera, off mic, that you thought you were going to be an interior designer or some sort of artist, and then you were going to be a nurse, and then now you're a musician. [00:18:58] Speaker B: Well, my courses, once I hit what you'd call a junior year, were like biology and chemistry and multiple maths, and I wanted to go to be a nurse. And then I had this amazing art teacher, Mr. Winant, and we just did such incredible things in the class that I decided, okay, I want to go to art school and. And be an interior designer. And I was still playing in two bands. I was playing in the senior band, but I helped out in the junior band, even though I was in a higher grade. But I joined, and I don't even remember how I knew of this. I joined the Scarborough Concert Band. Scarborough was a burb of Toronto, and it was incredible. It was just like we were playing all these amazing things like Tchaikowski arrangements. [00:20:01] Speaker A: And hard, hard stuff with people older than you, like community members. Or was it still high school? [00:20:10] Speaker B: It would be high school, maybe a couple older people, but it was mostly high school. And I met a group of guys from the Catholic boys school and we all started hanging out and everybody was sort of slowly going into music at University of Toronto. And I was discovering how much I really loved playing. And I had very little outside study other than what I got at school. So I was pretty green as a player. And I decided March of 1974, that I was going to go into music. And I had my grade eight piano, which helped, but I didn't have Grade eight conservatory horn. I didn't have my rudiments of theory and I didn't have harmony. So I crammed and I had to do. I got everything except harmony. So I had to write a test. And the night before the test, my eldest brother's girlfriend gave me a. Okay, this is just basically a mathematical way you can create harmony. And I went in and did it and I passed it. Whereas my friend. The guys had taken less and got certificates, they failed it. So I don't know what that was all about. I think I just got extremely lucky. Yeah. So I started my first year of university as a very green horn player. I went into music education and when auditioning for bands and orchestra and ensembles, I didn't make any of them. And I go, oh, God, it's so humiliating. However, they put me in the choir, which was the absolute best thing that could have happened to me. And because site like, you know, you look at the page, you got to hear your note. [00:22:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:22] Speaker B: You know, you got to hear it. [00:22:23] Speaker A: All in your head, especially on horn. [00:22:25] Speaker B: Yeah. And so I sang in the choir, which also gave me chops that other people didn't have to spend much longer in the practice room. So my teacher was Fred Risner, who was the principal horn in the Toronto Symphony. Absolutely amazing player. This man had chops forever. He could play Strauss and Mahler and hardly need an assistant, you know. But anyway, he would do things like he gave me the E Flat sonata. I'll think of the name in a minute. But I had to transpose, which I'd never done. And it's one of the hardest little sonatas to play. So I learned it and I learned that, and I went through learning all my technical stuff, and I'm thinking, you know, and I auditioned for performance and I was the only horn player that got into performance. So I kind of opened everybody's eyes and. [00:23:26] Speaker A: Including your own? [00:23:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Well. Well, it's sort of like my personality is a little bit, you know, you throw the gauntlet down, I'm going to pick it up. [00:23:35] Speaker A: Okay. [00:23:36] Speaker B: And. And that sort of stubborn Scottish background in me, that. [00:23:43] Speaker A: Is that where your heritage is? [00:23:45] Speaker B: On my dad's side, yes. My grandfather was from Dundee, Scotland. All his siblings, and my great grandfather was a baker that came first to Canada and set up shop with. In a bakery, I guess, with, I think, Pembroke, Ontario. It's sort of a very small town. [00:24:05] Speaker A: So would have this have been around the 1900s in that. Or before. [00:24:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Probably before the First World War. [00:24:15] Speaker A: Okay. [00:24:16] Speaker B: They had come over and My dad always said about his grandfather, about. Yeah, it'd be his grandfather. He'd say Donald. Because my dad's name was Donald, Donald Kamhaer. And he said after that, he said it was very difficult understanding what he was saying. But. Yeah. So on the other side is probably very English, maybe a little German in there, but farmers, we all like to garden. Yeah. So we're farmers at heart. [00:24:52] Speaker A: Nice. [00:24:52] Speaker B: Yeah. So anyway, back to university. Stephen Schnett was head of the brass department and he ran into me after it and he said it was one of the first great compliments I'd ever been given. And they are few and far between in our business. People don't. Don't compliment. You know, they just go, oh yeah, any little nod in the right. [00:25:18] Speaker A: I can't. [00:25:19] Speaker B: Yeah, nice job. Yeah, yeah, that was okay. And he just said he was blown away. So. I can't believe it was the same person. From the beginning of the year to May. So anyway, I got into. Did three years of very hard. I needed to build elephant skin. It needed to be a lot thicker of which. Yeah, it became. You just plow through. [00:25:48] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I don't know that we know. When we're that age we don't know anything. So we just. We do it. Right. [00:25:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:56] Speaker A: I don't know if in retrospect, if I'd put up with that again, that intensity and the all consumingness of. [00:26:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:03] Speaker A: But most of us have to go through it somewhere, sometime. [00:26:07] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's, you know, or it. [00:26:10] Speaker A: Or it makes and breaks you. [00:26:11] Speaker B: It makes it. That's exactly right. It makes or breaks you. And it's. I was sort of really determined, you know, I had some. [00:26:18] Speaker A: I've heard about you in that gauntlet. [00:26:22] Speaker B: Yeah. There were some very unkind people. But you just go, okay, fine. [00:26:27] Speaker A: It's true. In any business. [00:26:28] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. [00:26:29] Speaker A: It's always sometimes in the arts I think it's more personal because we have to really put ourselves out there, but we're really exposed. But I think there's a lot of bad people in all businesses. And what a cheery note. [00:26:41] Speaker B: I know. [00:26:42] Speaker A: Okay, so you made it through. So University of Toronto. [00:26:46] Speaker B: Yes. [00:26:46] Speaker A: Graduate. [00:26:47] Speaker B: I did. [00:26:48] Speaker A: And then what's the. What's the leap? What's. [00:26:51] Speaker B: What happened then? Okay. I. Oh, I got a job with a Canadian opera company in Toronto. But as on a tour bus and truck tour of Marriage of Figaro, which was great. Of course you meet. I still have friends that I periodically. [00:27:14] Speaker A: Hear from that like vodka and orange juice. [00:27:17] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I think I was onto some probably mostly beer by then, but we went across Canada in and down. I remember the first time we had some three days off was in San Francisco. It was like, oh God, it's just. It was heaven just being there because it was beautiful weather. And we ended up. I don't know where we went. Squirreled our way down and the last stop was Albuquerque, New Mexico. And then I had four wisdom. [00:27:47] Speaker A: That's actually quite a. Quite a wrong turn from touring Canada. [00:27:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It was a. [00:27:52] Speaker A: You turned south and kept. It was a living. [00:27:56] Speaker B: L. That's in some case. Well, we were in. I think. Where were we in British Columbia. It was a bit further north in Vancouver, winter, and we were in a hockey arena and they'd set the stage up, you know, with just little risers. So we're on the ice. [00:28:16] Speaker A: I've done that once in my career. [00:28:18] Speaker B: And of course the stage is a little higher and all the singers had their costumes but these enormous wrapped around their throats trying to keep their vocals warm. And I remember playing and getting through where I had a bit of a break and looking up and there was broken glass at the very top of the arena and all this snow was coming in. It was. It was a highlight. [00:28:41] Speaker A: Hi ho. The glamorous life. [00:28:43] Speaker B: Oh, yes, yes. [00:28:44] Speaker A: I was going to say bus and truck through Canada. Canada's huge. [00:28:47] Speaker B: Yes. [00:28:48] Speaker A: That's, you know, the next cities hours away. [00:28:52] Speaker B: Yeah. We would get up, grab something to eat, get on the bus and all day and we'd arrive and be able to maybe get a little bit of dinner, a little warm up and then. [00:29:02] Speaker A: Do a three hour opera. [00:29:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Back on stage. [00:29:05] Speaker A: Wash and repeat. [00:29:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:29:07] Speaker A: Wow. [00:29:07] Speaker B: Yep. [00:29:08] Speaker A: But I bet so many good stories. [00:29:11] Speaker B: Oh, yes. Then we went down after Christmas. Well, Christmas time I needed four ways wisdom teeth pulled. So I had them all pulled. Unfortunately, it was straight pull, so nothing too drastic. And then got back on the road. Beginning of January, it went down the east coast into the South. [00:29:29] Speaker A: Ooh. [00:29:30] Speaker B: Yeah, it was, it was, it was interesting being in the south. But this would be about 19. It was 1976. No, wait a second. 1979 in January, February. And it was just a little rocky down there at that time because. I know, I know. Particularly being in Macon. Macon. [00:29:55] Speaker A: Yeah, Macon, Georgia. [00:29:57] Speaker B: Georgia. And they just said it was our golden day. And they said, do not leave the hotel. Oh, yeah. I went, okay. [00:30:05] Speaker A: Wow. [00:30:05] Speaker B: Yeah. So played indoors. [00:30:08] Speaker A: Welcome to the deep South. [00:30:10] Speaker B: Yeah. But that's where I think I found my love of grits. [00:30:14] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [00:30:15] Speaker B: Oh, I love Grits? Yeah. [00:30:17] Speaker A: Well, good for you. I haven't found mine yet. I don't. No, they're neither here nor there for me, but. So. Okay, but those. Was it all just Marriage of Figaro? Yeah, Every. [00:30:34] Speaker B: Every show, everyone. [00:30:35] Speaker A: So you can still play that while you sleep? [00:30:41] Speaker B: Yes. [00:30:41] Speaker A: One of the greatest overture of all time. [00:30:43] Speaker B: Yeah. One bassoon, two French horns, one clarinet. Yeah. Some strings. [00:30:50] Speaker A: Okay, so then what happens after that? [00:30:54] Speaker B: I was home in the summer and I was having some coaching by the second horn player in the Toronto Symphony, John Simonelli. Tough guy. Really tough. But really great for me at that time and because, you know, I still considered myself pretty green. And he just approached. I went over one day to where he was staying and he said, so horn student of mine was going to go over to Hong Kong to play for a year. And he said, but his wife got a job in the Met, so of course they're not going to go. And he said, if you want to go, he said, you need some orchestra experience. Send your resume to the conductor. And I did. And I had to make a tape. So I made a tape, which is what it was. I sent it to the conductor and they said, okay, come on over. And I was play assistant principal. [00:31:58] Speaker A: What year is this? [00:31:59] Speaker B: This would be September. Oh, August, actually, of 1979. So I finished the Canadian Opera Company. I went over to Hong Kong and yes. [00:32:12] Speaker A: British possession at the time. [00:32:13] Speaker B: Yes. [00:32:14] Speaker A: We might have crossed paths. [00:32:15] Speaker B: Really? [00:32:16] Speaker A: I was there in 1980, in June. [00:32:21] Speaker B: No way. I was still there. [00:32:24] Speaker A: I felt it. [00:32:24] Speaker B: You did? [00:32:25] Speaker A: So maybe we had to cross paths. [00:32:27] Speaker B: You didn't call me. [00:32:27] Speaker A: No, I was at the Dairy Queen because there was probably. There was a Dairy Queen and a McDonald's. [00:32:35] Speaker B: And what was it? Yeah, I think it opened. And what's the one with sliders? What's that? [00:32:42] Speaker A: Oh, White Castle. [00:32:44] Speaker B: Oh, White Castle opened. It was like, oh, my God. Just. And they were going, oh, you can. [00:32:49] Speaker A: Get a one hamburger for like, funny sidebar. It's not even that interesting. So I was there because the University of Minnesota Wind Ensemble, we toured China. [00:33:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:01] Speaker A: Did a three work, three week tour of China. First amateur performing group in since the Cultural Revolution. So it was. It was. There's a lot of stories there. But the funny thing is we flew Minneapolis to Chicago, Chicago to Tokyo, Tokyo to Hong Kong. So we were in Hong Kong, coming in and out of China. So when we got to Hong Kong, we were all like, jet lag, blah, blah, blah. Did the China thing for three weeks. And then we came back to Hong Kong and weirdly like the first evening I'm like, oh, Dairy Queen sounds good. You know, Chinese don't do a lot of dairy or you know, stuff like that. And like get to the dairy queen, like 32 of us are there. Like everybody had sort of this. I need some western food. Even though we'd had fantastic feasts. [00:33:55] Speaker B: I'm sure you did. [00:33:55] Speaker A: Yeah, the whole time. I didn't eat any of it at the time. You know, if it wasn't Velveeta, I wasn't eating it. So, you know, I needed some processed non dairy ice cream to, you know, pre embalm myself. So anyhow, but that was, that's about all my Hong Kong experience. [00:34:13] Speaker B: Yeah. When I first got there, I had been flown Toronto to Montreal. Bit of a layover, but not enough to get out of the airport. Then I went to Paris, but arrived there in the middle of the night. And I don't know which airport is at that time. 1979, way outside of Paris de Gaulle. That sounds right. [00:34:32] Speaker A: I think so. [00:34:33] Speaker B: And, and of course back then I had a suitcase that was enormous, no wheels, and a French horn case that was not flat. My bell was still intact on my horn. [00:34:44] Speaker A: Oh. [00:34:45] Speaker B: So it's like, you know, I didn't put it underneath and you know, Air France and they were so great, they would put it up where the flight attendants would put their stuff, which was up above so it would fit. [00:35:00] Speaker A: Not anymore. Girlfriend. [00:35:01] Speaker B: No, I know that. But then I went to Dubai and then I flew in. [00:35:07] Speaker A: Did that even exist in 1979? [00:35:10] Speaker B: Yeah, it was barely. Yeah, I remember it because they said we're landing in Dubai. And then I went to New Delhi and then I went to Bangkok, of which we had to get off the plane and there was trouble in Burma at that time and Cambodia. And so when I stepped off the plane, I thought I'd. I thought I'd walk behind the, the jet engine. It was so unbelievably hot and the wind was so strong. And then I look up and all along the Runway pointed at us were jeeps with machine guns. So this is my welcome to Asia, right. And I got down and I get in there. So, you know, I haven't been sleeping much and eyes wide open and just listening to, you know, foreign language going like crazy on this televisions. And I finally arrived in Hong Kong and then they didn't want to let me in because they hadn't sent me my visa to get into work. They said, oh well, deal with it, just tell them you're visiting. I got all this shit with me and it's like I'm visiting. But they finally let me in, met this, the lady from the office who drove me over to the hotel which is in the middle of Wan Chai, which is. Is a hooker district. [00:36:32] Speaker A: Oh, nice. [00:36:33] Speaker B: And get up to my room to be welcomed by two two and a half inch long cockroaches all over the place. So I sort of standing on the bed, turn on the TV and the commercial that comes on was the conductor of my university orchestra because he used to go to Japan, who's doing a commercial for Samsung. I went, oh, a bit of home. [00:36:59] Speaker A: That's right. [00:37:00] Speaker B: A sign from above that I should be here. [00:37:05] Speaker A: So did you play more than a season there? [00:37:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I was there two years. We did a new concert every week. So it was a lot of repertoire. [00:37:14] Speaker A: Good band? [00:37:15] Speaker B: Yes, yes, Surprising. It was sort of. What do you call the. We called it the, the mercenaries that used to be in like Saudi Arabia and stuff like that. Anyway, we were from all over the place, you know, Philippines, South Africa, quite a few Americans. [00:37:38] Speaker A: I know a few people who have wafted through that sort of situation. [00:37:42] Speaker B: You know, a guy playing bass trombone came at the same time as I did that I was at school with university, so. But it was an interesting band, you know, very easy to delve into a lot of drugs and you know, a lot of alcoholics and people strung out on something or other. [00:38:04] Speaker A: Right. You're there on. You're there on the other side of the world, sort of everything. Were you married by this time? [00:38:11] Speaker B: Not the first year. [00:38:12] Speaker A: Okay. [00:38:13] Speaker B: And not. I'm trying to think maybe I got married over there in the second year. [00:38:18] Speaker A: Did you meet your husband there? [00:38:19] Speaker B: I did, I met Mark there. Yeah, he's the principal trombone. [00:38:24] Speaker A: Okay. [00:38:24] Speaker B: Yeah. And yeah, great player. Yeah, absolutely great player. [00:38:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, tremendous. Well, this sounds like a good place for a break because we know you come back to Hamilton. [00:38:38] Speaker B: I do, but then it's. [00:38:40] Speaker A: I'm still on my first question of like how the hell did you wander in a musical theater? You've got such a good thing going. So we'll take a short break and then see what you're willing to reveal about the Broadway and other stuff like maybe dogs. [00:38:57] Speaker B: Dogs? Yes, dogs. [00:38:59] Speaker A: So we'll be right back with Sandra. But first it's time for that time honored tradition, the interval adored by traditionalists across the world and. Or maybe just in Chicago or not even there. But in any case, let's take a break and take a listen. Today's interval, the classic French minor 9th. French Canadian. French horn. Canadian minor. 9th. Honestly, I don't know if it's classic or Canadian, but it's brought to you by no one and sponsored by no one. So free from the bonds of capitalism. Let's get back to our interview with Sandra. Wow, that was an amazing oct. What was? I don't know what the interval was. [00:40:00] Speaker B: I don't know. It's just sort of pinch and spit by the time you get to the top. [00:40:04] Speaker A: Isn't it all in every industry? Don't go too deep there. What. What kind of horn do you play? [00:40:12] Speaker B: I play on a Carl Hill horn. [00:40:14] Speaker A: Of course. I love them. I've never heard of it. What is it? Okay. Oh, Carl Hill. [00:40:18] Speaker B: Carl is a French horn player that now. [00:40:22] Speaker A: Thank God. [00:40:22] Speaker B: Yes. [00:40:23] Speaker A: Wouldn't it be weird if he was a loot player? [00:40:26] Speaker B: But he's been a horn maker for a lot of years and out of Canada. Grand Rapids, Michigan. Oh, yes. Gail Williams, cso. Yeah. And teacher at Icon. [00:40:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:40] Speaker B: Oh, she's. Yeah. Just like. [00:40:41] Speaker A: She's still teaching. [00:40:42] Speaker B: I think she just retired. There's a new guy there, and. But she's remarkable. And she plays his horns. And when I was thinking about buying a new horn, my daughter had studied with Gail at Northwestern. So I got in touch with Gail and said. And she says, oh, if you're coming to Chicago, come up to Northwestern. I've got my horns there. You can try them out. So I. Two friends of mine in Las Vegas had horns that were Carl's, and I tried them, but my son was doing recital at DePaul for his masters. And so I came up for over for that out west to east and went up to see Gail. She was hilarious. She brought out, you know, the crispy model and the Guyer model. And then she was listening to her students prep for their juries, and she kept running in and said, oh, here's one of Carl's mouthpieces, which he would never make for me, but. Because he never had time. But yeah. So I landed on the Geier model, which is sort of like between Crosby and Geyer, obviously. Two German models. Most horns are modeled after the two schools. And I looked at the guy. Look at the guy as being sort of maybe a little bit like a Cadillac and a guy are more like a sports car. [00:42:05] Speaker A: The crispy. [00:42:07] Speaker B: Crispy is crispy. [00:42:09] Speaker A: What is it? [00:42:10] Speaker B: Crispy with a U. Oh, crispy's better. [00:42:15] Speaker A: I like the crispy one. You like the crispy, brittle tone. You know, good as staccato. [00:42:20] Speaker B: But I played a con 8D. A beautiful one for years. It's sort of one I wished I kept, but just couldn't afford it. When I went to start playing more shows in Toronto, I just needed something that wasn't such a big orchestral horn. And I bought a Yamaha and. Which is really good horn. Put a new lead pipe on it because I just felt it was lacking in color. And when I ran into the guys from Japan that had brought over horns, and he looked at my horn and he said, why did you do that? I think I'll go try this horn over here. Thank you. Don't want to tell him why, but anyway, so I waited five years for a horn. The weight was apparently beginning at 3. And then he said I kept getting pushed down the line because people that wanted a double horn were asking now for triples. And that takes longer to put together. You've got a three horns in one. [00:43:25] Speaker A: In one. [00:43:26] Speaker B: It's like that gum, right? Something that was an age 1960s commercial. [00:43:34] Speaker A: So was this happening when you're living in Hamilton? [00:43:37] Speaker B: No, I was. This was in Las Vegas. I was living in Las Vegas. [00:43:40] Speaker A: Okay, so we've got so many things to fill in here. You got back to Hamilton. So when did kids appear? [00:43:48] Speaker B: Emily arrived in 1987. No, sorry, Emily. 1983. And Nick arrived in 1987. [00:43:58] Speaker A: Okay. [00:43:59] Speaker B: And we taught at a music camp. National Music Camp of Canada. It's in Ontario by Aurelia Rama. Casino is right there. And the camp owners were incredibly generous. And, you know, if you taught there, the whole family came. And when the whole family came, if they were old enough, they could participate. So we had a junior band, a senior band, an orchestra. Jazz started up there, and music theater. It was an incredible place to be. We were always there every the end of the summer for two and a half weeks. And I guess Emily would be 8 and Nick was 4. When we came back, she goes, okay, I want to play trumpet. I don't want a regular trumpet. I want a jazz trumpet. [00:44:55] Speaker A: She's eight. [00:44:56] Speaker B: Yes. And so my ex went into the band store and said, okay, guys, I need to rent a trumpet, but I don't want to. And he said in the chorus, everybody's laughing. So she started up on trumpet. And Nick kept saying, I want a cello, I want a bow, and I want a book. And he's four years old. I'm going, that's nice, honey. All I could see is mortgage, mortgage, mortgage. And he goes, and he kept it up. So we got him into cello lessons, which sort of starts on a big Viola. [00:45:30] Speaker A: Turn it sideways and say, yeah, it's a cello enough for you. [00:45:34] Speaker B: That's right. And so both of them kept going. And music made it look too fun, I think, because they always came to concerts with the orchestra in Hamilton. And then when I was doing, we both actually did Ragtime pre Broadway for a year up in North York, live in Jabinski. And I did actually Showboat there first for a year and then I did Sunset Boulevard with Diane Carroll. Oh, and she was lovely. And it just shocked me that between a double show day she had, she would sit in an ice bath because the stairs, all the stairs in the show on her knees just killed her knees so she would get the swelling down with an ice bath. And I kind of went, oh my God. Brave woman. But then we did Ragtime, which is one of my favorite all time shows. And it was Brian Stokes Mitchell. [00:46:34] Speaker A: Audra. Thank you, Audrasy. [00:46:36] Speaker B: Yes. [00:46:37] Speaker A: I mean the, the list is long and I agree with you. I think it's one of the brilliant shows. [00:46:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:44] Speaker A: I have a lot of connections to it. Have never done it. [00:46:47] Speaker B: It's beautiful and it's one. I. I was subbing out in Vancouver while one of the guy was supposed to play. It was finishing the orchestra season. So I played it for a month or so and got to see it before I flew out and just fabulous. [00:47:05] Speaker A: But though, which is nice because since you've never been to Broadway. [00:47:10] Speaker B: Yes, I know, I know. [00:47:12] Speaker A: It's on Broadway now. [00:47:14] Speaker B: Is it really? [00:47:14] Speaker A: Yeah, they have a revival at Lincoln Center. You should go. [00:47:19] Speaker B: That would be lovely. [00:47:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:20] Speaker B: Okay, I'll look into that. [00:47:22] Speaker A: It's been extended. It's running through the spring, I think. At least my friend Jim Moore is conducting it. Wow. [00:47:29] Speaker B: We had an interesting opening night. First my daughter took one of the tickets for opening night and then her girlfriend from high school came. So they're in the audience and, and the show starts up and Jeffrey Hewitt's conducting. And all of a sudden I'm going, I'm falling asleep. And I went to the second horn player. I'm going, are you feeling okay? He goes, oh, no, I'm feeling weird. And all of a sudden we discovered that the huge parties that Garth would put on after the show, all the generators, the exhaust was coming into the pit. The diesel, you know, exhaust. So we're falling asleep. [00:48:11] Speaker A: You're getting carbon monoxide poisoning. [00:48:13] Speaker B: Yes. And so he's on the phone just yelling, you know, and, and then when mother comes out to sing Miss Maisie and I guess they just didn't Turn off. I don't know what happened on stage, but they didn't turn off her mic in time because I hear, ah, go right through the hall. We had all kinds of crazy stuff happened in the opening night, but it was fun. And then the party was great. They had multiple bands all over this huge performance center and couldn't find my daughter and her friend at all. And then we come along and there's this amazing klezmer band going. And they're in the middle of the dance floor dancing with the guys in the klezmer band having a ball. [00:48:59] Speaker A: Oh, Garth spending that money he didn't. [00:49:01] Speaker B: Have, this is true. But he put on a great party. That's why. So. [00:49:07] Speaker A: Well. Wow. You played some gargantuan ones then. Yeah, it was Ragtime Show, Showboat and Sunset Boulevard. Wow. [00:49:14] Speaker B: Just him. And then it was close to 2001 and my ex had decided he'd had enough with Canada and even with trombone. And he sold all the instruments. Like all of them. [00:49:30] Speaker A: It just was done. [00:49:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Except for his favorite tenor and he was. Did it courses reading 4 inch thick books. And he got a job at Motorola in Chicago. So my big joke was when people said, why you moved to Chicago? I said, well, it's either that or I divorced my husband. Ha ha ha. Down the road a couple years. But. [00:49:59] Speaker A: So that's how you got to Chicago? [00:50:00] Speaker B: That's how I got to Chicago. I had a hard. I had to get my green card. And we arrived July 1st of 2001. And obviously I've been here going close to 25 years. [00:50:15] Speaker A: And what's the other news? [00:50:17] Speaker B: The big news is I'm a dualist now as of in November and last November 2025, I am American citizen. I'm American because I want to. To vote. [00:50:27] Speaker A: And I was there and you were there. [00:50:30] Speaker B: Bless you. Thank you. [00:50:32] Speaker A: At your swearing in ceremony. [00:50:34] Speaker B: And it was lovely. It was really lovely. The judge was amazing, wasn't she? Yes. [00:50:39] Speaker A: And the way she honored, like she had the people from each country stand up. [00:50:44] Speaker B: Yes. [00:50:45] Speaker A: That was cool. [00:50:46] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. [00:50:47] Speaker A: What was it? 41 different countries. [00:50:50] Speaker B: 42 and 42 different countries and 97 people there. [00:50:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:55] Speaker B: And of course, the most were from Mexico. Everybody's like, yay. [00:51:01] Speaker A: But you know, some from Kazakhstan and I mean, Iran. Yeah. There was. It was a very interesting array of countries. It's my second ceremony I've been to. I found it very moving both times. Like what a. And especially in our current country. [00:51:18] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. She was very adamant about saying how our. How democracy is so Fragile. [00:51:25] Speaker A: And how immigration is one of the great strengths of our country, which, you know. Oh, I have to say we both agree with. Until you vote the wrong way. [00:51:34] Speaker B: That's right. In Canada, it's always been, you know, immigrants were welcome. And we've seen some amazing stories of immigrants coming to Canada and just doing incredible things. [00:51:47] Speaker A: Of course. [00:51:47] Speaker B: Yeah. There's a chocolate company in the Maritimes that was brought. I forget where they're from, but it's, it's. And then the giving back is wonderful. [00:51:59] Speaker A: Your daughter lives in St. John's Newfoundland. [00:52:03] Speaker B: Which is as far east you can. [00:52:05] Speaker A: Go in North America, so that's convenient for grandma. [00:52:09] Speaker B: Well, Nana was just there with, you know, Emily and her husband Andrew, and my two grandsons, Henry, who turned 8 while I was there, and Owen, who turned 3 while I was there. [00:52:23] Speaker A: The Maritimes I have not been to. [00:52:25] Speaker B: Oh, it's lovely go in summer, though. Well, it's much nicer. [00:52:30] Speaker A: Yeah. But. Yeah, I want to go there. And Prince Edward island just seems exotic to me in a. Yeah, it's. [00:52:38] Speaker B: That's where the red sand, you know, it has the red. It has red soil. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Pei potatoes. [00:52:46] Speaker A: But I thought it was Anne of Green Gables. [00:52:48] Speaker B: It is. [00:52:49] Speaker A: And red soil. [00:52:50] Speaker B: And red soil. [00:52:50] Speaker A: That's the second chapter. [00:52:53] Speaker B: Yes. [00:52:54] Speaker A: The follow up book. And it's the movie version of the Tide commercials. Honey, this mud won't come out of my jean. I digress. [00:53:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:04] Speaker A: Okay. All right. And. And your son, while I'm thinking about it, he's a professional cellist. [00:53:11] Speaker B: Yes, actually, they both are. She's professional horn. She plays principal horn in this in the Newfoundland Symphony. And it's, you know, it's a smaller orchestra, but Nick's been in a bunch of little orchestras and tours on shows. [00:53:25] Speaker A: And now he's in subs with Chicago Symphony. [00:53:28] Speaker B: He does, but he's full time in Indianapolis Symphony. [00:53:32] Speaker A: Nice. [00:53:32] Speaker B: And he's recovered from his broken wrist and is back full time with Indianapolis this week playing Mahler. Second I said not a small thing to come back to. No, but he's. [00:53:45] Speaker A: How did he break his wrist? [00:53:47] Speaker B: He slipped on the L between after a rehearsal with the Chicago Symphony here. That was just before third Thanksgiving or the day. Right, Day after Thanksgiving. Yeah. [00:54:04] Speaker A: And how did he. How's he surviving? [00:54:07] Speaker B: Oh, he did great. I mean, like, you know, I broke my same wrist out in Vegas rock climbing. [00:54:15] Speaker A: What a good son. [00:54:16] Speaker B: I know. It's just he had to do like mom. So he has a plate and bunch of screws like I do, but he. The Day after he did it, he had it bandaged up and they were going back to Indianapolis and him and his wife and he just came over, he needed something and I had to show him all the moves that a cellist do with my wrists. And then he goes, okay, I'll be okay. So I went, phew. Yeah. So he feels the weather, right? [00:54:46] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [00:54:47] Speaker B: But I did for a long, long time and I don't anymore. So. [00:54:52] Speaker A: Does he have any kids? [00:54:53] Speaker B: Two dogs. Two Havanese, him and his. His wife has one named Daphnis and the other nix is Maurice, as in Maurice Ravel. He had a Chloe who is a Australian shepherd who was more human than dog. So it was Daphnis and Chloe. And now since she. She was gone on the Rainbow Bridge, she's. He got a new little dog and he's Maurice. Maurice, yeah. And yeah. [00:55:22] Speaker A: So you have a beautiful dog, Charlie. [00:55:25] Speaker B: Yes. Who is an only child and is. [00:55:29] Speaker A: Not always friendly with others, but a sweet dog. I had the pleasure of her company. [00:55:36] Speaker B: Yeah, she's a good girl. But like I said, I never know who she's going to be okay with and who she's not. [00:55:41] Speaker A: She wasn't okay with dear little Libby at Thanksgiving, but. And we're being supervised today by my newest dog. Two weeks today. Little Daisy, she's a Bernese mountain. Little Daisy, she's gigantic. [00:55:59] Speaker B: I was expecting a little bit smaller. [00:56:02] Speaker A: The hugest paws you've ever seen. She's a Bernese mountain dog rescue, two years old. And yeah, we love dogs. [00:56:09] Speaker B: She's. Oh, do I, do I? I have. You know, if I don't have Charlie, I stop with all dogs. I have to just say hello. [00:56:16] Speaker A: Yep. [00:56:17] Speaker B: They just. [00:56:17] Speaker A: They're so good for the soul. [00:56:20] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:56:21] Speaker A: So. So you made it to Chicago, got divorced. [00:56:26] Speaker B: I did, yes. [00:56:28] Speaker A: I know that. Like here you. Did you play Lion King here when it started? [00:56:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I did. I did a couple smaller like other shows, I think one was Sun, South Pacific and Aida and Lion King. I did two. It was here first before, I guess it went on tour and then it came back and I did that and then that's when things got really messy at home. And I was talking to a contractor who had asked my daughter to take the last year off of Northwestern and go tour on Evita. And we all talked about it and she decided, no, I'm going to stay at school, I'll just, you know, because if I leave, may not come back, blah, blah, and understandable. So then I called him up and said because things had slowed down Here I'd done a stint as a bartender, which was hilarious. That's too long a story to get into, even though it was a short career. And I said, so since my daughter didn't take the gig is. Do you still have a horn opening in the Evita tour? Do you laugh? He says, yeah. So I got what my daughter turned down and played principal on the tour for, I don't know, quite a while. [00:57:48] Speaker A: Canadian tour, American tour, it was. [00:57:50] Speaker B: I was out of Chicago. It was American tour, yeah. I'd also done. When I was in Canada, I'd done a tour with Michael Bolton, sort of Music of the Night. There was a Music of the Night tour, and then there was a Music of the Night tour with Michael Bolton. I subbed on the first one in Montreal, and then I played on the second tour. [00:58:10] Speaker A: A lot of pit musicians made good bread doing those over the years. Oh, yeah, because that was a big band, right, you toured with. [00:58:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:19] Speaker A: Not a full orchestra, but. [00:58:21] Speaker B: Well, the one I did was pretty full. Three French horns, a bunch of trombones and strings and everything. And there's some Americans, Canadians in it. First horn was Jeff Nelson. He plays. He's been in and out of the Canadian Brass, but he's doing a lot of that now. But he taught at Indiana University, a. [00:58:47] Speaker A: Decent music school, from what one hears. [00:58:50] Speaker B: He's a brilliant player. And so it was him, myself, and then Pedro from Kiev. So half the band was from Kyiv and the other half was Armenian, and they didn't get along, so the band was split. But they were just such lovely people. And I would have. The bassoon player was from Keith, and they would fight to carry my French horn off the bus. It was so sweet. Pedro came up to my shoulder and then Jeff was a good head taller than me, and Pedro couldn't speak English very well, but he looked up after the end of the show one day goes, oh, crescendo as we all went up in height he says he made it clear to me that women don't play high notes on the French horn. He couldn't understand why I played such high notes. I've lived with it all my career, so it never surprised me. [00:59:50] Speaker A: So do you usually play lead? Because this isn't like. [00:59:54] Speaker B: No, no, no, you know. No, I don't usually play lead. I started in the Hamilton Orchestra on 4th, and I worked up, and then when the guy in third left, they didn't contract me, but because I lived there, they put me on third. And it was Miles and Robert, myself and my friend Nancy on Fourth horn, lovely section, great horn section. [01:00:19] Speaker A: Is there. Are there ones of you, though, that play better low and play better high? Is that how the parts are written? Is that how they get distributed? Do you have, like. Yeah, but not the high notes. That means you're on third. Or how does that work? [01:00:35] Speaker B: Well, nowadays, like, probably since the 70s, you have to play everything, right? And traditionally, I think, you know, 1 and 3 were high horn parts and orchestrally written mostly that way. And second and fourth are low horn parts. But, yeah, you got to play it all. Everybody, you know, you got to be fluent all over the horn because, you know, you just expect it that way, you know, because I played all positions, you know, and. Yeah, you just have to be able to. [01:01:12] Speaker A: I just wonder that even when I'm watching the CSO do a big Mahler thing and there's six horns and one's like, just. What do they cover? Do they cover the. The notes the principal doesn't want to play? Or an assistant. [01:01:27] Speaker B: An assistant horn. Principal horn will. Will take over when. Because, you know, okay, say Mahler, you know, your principal horn and others in the section have big solos, right. And, you know, it gets taxing, especially what we call long blows through a section. And, you know, you'll have. When it gets really loud, you know, he might take. Or she playing principal might take a little time off, and the assistant comes in. So it's pretty marked out, usually pretty clearly. I know I have had a few times where they go play. You know, we just go, look, just play now. But. [01:02:07] Speaker A: And is it contracted that way? I mean, is there a budget? Even though it's written for four horns, the principal knows he's gonna have an. [01:02:16] Speaker B: Assistant because it's not always depending on, like. I mean, I'm. You know, big orchestras. Yeah. There's always someone. And I see, you know, obviously, since moving back to Chicago, I see more rotation within the section and, you know, which I think is lovely, you know, that you. There's just an amazing. It's an amazing section. It really. It's. It's just. They play differently from the Clevenger years, but it's. It's just so strong. It's just. I don't know. I just. [01:02:54] Speaker A: I think their brass are still spectacular. [01:02:56] Speaker B: They are. [01:02:57] Speaker A: I love Esteban as a trumpet player. It's like that dude is. [01:03:01] Speaker B: Oh, it's. [01:03:01] Speaker A: He's special. [01:03:03] Speaker B: Rocks are solid and just, you know, fearless. It's just. And you cut. You got to be. [01:03:09] Speaker A: It's the most beautiful sound, though, on every. I just. I don't understand him. [01:03:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:16] Speaker A: I don't think many people play on his plane. [01:03:19] Speaker B: It's pretty special. [01:03:20] Speaker A: Yeah. But the horns too. The. The lead guy is now a doctor. [01:03:24] Speaker B: Yes. [01:03:25] Speaker A: Like he's not accomplished enough. [01:03:27] Speaker B: So. [01:03:28] Speaker A: Hey, maybe you could be a nurse maybe, you know, sort of. Hey, I'm a nurse now. Can I play second? [01:03:35] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know. But it's a really amazing section and I. And contract. Yeah. In an orchestra. Yeah. You will be assigned and then you might be just given like maybe just horn so that they can put you anywhere. But I think it's just, you know, those. They seem to be really compatible people and they just kind of move around. [01:04:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I'm sure that you. You. It's somebody you trust to. They're there to give you a break. [01:04:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:09] Speaker A: Who knows? [01:04:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Well knows how you play. And it's tricky. It's. You gotta blend real well. You know, it might not be how you play, but you gotta play how. This is how the principal plays. And I would play assistant a lot in Toronto Symphony for my. My own teacher a long time, you know, a lot. Not super a lot, but it was. [01:04:34] Speaker A: But you had to play like him. [01:04:36] Speaker B: I had. Yeah. And it's sort of like he'd be holding a written at the top of the staff f. And it was being held for a long time. So you have to duck in and take over. And Tamberley sound like him. It's. It's, you know, it's a thankless job because you don't play a lot. But it's. I always found it really challenging when you had to end up doing stuff like that. [01:05:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:04] Speaker B: You know, but. [01:05:06] Speaker A: Yeah, it's cool. I never. I never really understood the. How that. How that worked exactly. But now I have a little bit of understanding. So you're touring a little bit, but you're Chicago based. Are you like a swingin single now? Is that how you're. [01:05:25] Speaker B: Well, not swinging, but definitely single. And going out on the Evita tour, you know, I left town and put my stuff in storage because I'd had an apartment and toured for a while and I met my second husband. [01:05:46] Speaker A: But on the tour. [01:05:48] Speaker B: On the tour, yeah. And it was just sort of. I ended up playing actually. I don't know how it happened, but I was in Toronto and then went back to Toronto. I was in town playing Evita and ended up playing. Staying and playing Les Mis because I was still in the Toronto Union. And he just said, why don't you come to Vegas? And I thought last Place on earth I thought I would ever go. Absolutely last place. And so I said, okay. And I sort of packed things up and I sort of thought, okay, this either is a good idea or it's gonna fail miserably and I'm just gonna be prepared to turn around and come back. [01:06:30] Speaker A: And this is about when the kids are grown. [01:06:33] Speaker B: Oh, yes. Nick was touring. It'd be about 2005. I just became divorced. So I landed there February 18th on my 2006. My 50th birthday. Day before my 50th birthday. [01:06:54] Speaker A: Okay. [01:06:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:56] Speaker A: And it seems to have stuck. [01:06:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I stayed there. And what I didn't know is they were opening Phantom, so. And Jack Gahn, who had conducted the tour with the guys from Kyiv in Armenia, was conducting it. So I and Sam said, you're going to. You know, we all auditioned. Everybody auditioned. And what they did was they set up an orchestra that was going to be the pit orchestra. And they did different combinations of. Of people. I've never done an audition like that. It was really cool. [01:07:34] Speaker A: Is it legal? [01:07:35] Speaker B: I don't know. It's Vegas. [01:07:38] Speaker A: Okay. [01:07:39] Speaker B: It's Vegas. [01:07:40] Speaker A: You know, it's a right to audition. [01:07:42] Speaker B: State, something like that. So I ended up being in this section. I played third horn. [01:07:48] Speaker A: Was that the one that was like 90 minute? [01:07:50] Speaker B: It's a 90 minute Phantom, of which I did a lot of Phantom, the full version. And it's disappointing, which is. And even more disappointing to have Weber and his, I guess, music supervisor there when they wanted to. Because the movie had been out and they wanted the big sections to be big, even bigger than having just the orchestra. So they wanted us to record all the big sections. And the understanding is that would be set underneath us and we would be live with the recording underneath it. So we'd sound big. Right. And it ended up. They decided. The music supervisor says, well, you know, we're worried that you guys will play out of tune with the track. I'm going, but it's us playing, you know, that's so stupid. Anyway, so we didn't get to play. So the. Jack would have to press a button for the recording to come in. [01:08:47] Speaker A: And it would play by itself. [01:08:48] Speaker B: And it would play and we'd sit down. [01:08:49] Speaker A: Is this David Caddick, the supervisor? [01:08:53] Speaker B: Probably. So very interesting things. I mean, they had a. They called it Las Vegas the Spectacular. And they had a spectacular chandelier, which was in multiple parts that would lie on the stage. And then when it opens after the auction, excuse me, scene, it would come together, swirl around and come Together in the middle and then light up, right? And so one time, you know, it was always breaking down. You know, there'd be an hour wait before we could go back until they got the computer right and everything set up again. And. But one time, it just started coming off the stage and sliding towards Jack in the pit. And he's. You know, the poor man's just trying to duck down, get it, and it stopped, like, with it, you know, he's within an inch of his face. It was like, crazy. [01:09:53] Speaker A: Chandelier does not like conductor. [01:09:55] Speaker B: Yeah. And then there was a point where they got stuck on stage with the. The monkey over and over and over again. And I hear him just go, well, see, somebody just shoot me. And we're killing ourselves laughing. Of course, then the tape wouldn't go. He'd be pressing the button and nothing happened. And we'd go, should we play? Should we sit here? Should we play? Should we sit here? So it had its. [01:10:24] Speaker A: How long did it run? Not as long as they thought. Right. They thought it'd be now and forever. [01:10:29] Speaker B: I think it would be seven years. [01:10:31] Speaker A: Okay. [01:10:31] Speaker B: I played three of them, then went over to Lion King with J Alger, which I think sort of put me in bad books with Jack. But I. I just. I just couldn't handle not playing. It was not. It was just not. [01:10:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:10:52] Speaker B: So we had. [01:10:53] Speaker A: Is Lion King more fun to play? It has to be more fun than Phantom, isn't it? [01:10:57] Speaker B: Well, the whole Phantom is really fun to play. There's a lot in there. It's challenging, it's taxing. It's a good show to play. It was not my favorite to watch, but it's really fun to play. Lion King just has so many beautiful associations playing here in Chicago. Because when I came to Chicago in 2001, I was, you know, Chicago brass. Just such a reputation. I mean, and it's just like, oh, God, how can you live up to that? They just, you know. So, you know, I started a little bit of work and got into Lion King, and that was one horn, and I really worked my butt off to get that really solid. And I just had time of my life. Just such a lovely band, such amazing musicians. And the vibe here. Sorry, Toronto, the vibe is very uptight there. At least when I was doing all my stuff there, people. Very uptight, very tense, very critical. And you come here where they're. The reputation of the brass is so high, and it's just, hey, wow, we're having a good time. Everybody's laid back, and Chicago is it Was lovely. [01:12:28] Speaker A: Chicago musicians are not that there's not of course stuff, but like in general our work here is cordial and community and such. [01:12:42] Speaker B: Well, the only experience I ever had here was with absolute lovely people and amazing musicians. [01:12:50] Speaker A: I would say maybe we're people first, job second. [01:12:53] Speaker B: Okay. [01:12:53] Speaker A: Where like New York is job first and then job second and job third and then fourth, maybe people and seventh or something or not at all. [01:13:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:13:07] Speaker A: But you need to be a decent human being here I think as well. [01:13:11] Speaker B: Yeah. And people in Vegas were very talented people. [01:13:15] Speaker A: Love. [01:13:15] Speaker B: I have lovely friends. [01:13:16] Speaker A: What was your living in Vegas experience as a Canadian? As a Canadian or as anybody, you. [01:13:24] Speaker B: Know, it was interesting. I mean I absolutely no interest in gambling and the strip and all that that goes with it. But Bobby Road was head ridden a motorcycle since he was a wee lad. And so I wrote on the back of it a lot and I decided I'm going to learn. So I took a motorcycle course and bought a motorcycle that was an 1100 Yamaha, which is really big and managed to drop it going slow a couple times. But it like. [01:14:06] Speaker A: Drop it like mean. [01:14:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Tipping over. Yeah. I wasn't under it. Under it. It was like really. It was a slow turn. I was okay. But yeah. And so I got my license. [01:14:20] Speaker A: I guess if you're gonna do it, that's the place to do it. [01:14:22] Speaker B: Oh, you just. [01:14:23] Speaker A: There's no ice and there's no traffic. [01:14:25] Speaker B: Or people, you know, sandstorms, that stuff. And once in a while you get like downpour of rain. But I loved riding. I. And so from that Yamaha I went to a 950. And then I bought my absolute favorite one which was Yamaha Scout. Flat, black, beautiful. [01:14:46] Speaker A: Yeah, beautiful. But I've never, I've never been intrigued by bikes. Yeah, the people who love it, love it. [01:14:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's, you know, I went to motorcycle rallies. Just not my cup of tea. But you know, you gotta say it's like interesting, you know, motorcycle rides where the guys, you know, it's bar hopping stops and they're getting drunker and drunken. You're going, I think I'm gonna go home now. This is the fourth bar, it's time to leave. But it was always a fundraiser and. Yeah, that's good. [01:15:18] Speaker A: So on a less happy note, your husband then got sick. [01:15:23] Speaker B: He got cancer. At the time of which I had. After Lion King closed, I subbed a bit in Phantom and then it really kind of dried up for a while because there's people ahead of me and the Las Vegas Philharmonic has a really fine horn section. So anyway, I got my teaching substitute license and I substitute did one. I went up to this one school and was told, don't go up to the northeast of Vegas. It's too rough up there. Big Hispanic community, blah, blah, blah. And I kind of went, okay. So my first subbing was up in the northeast of Vegas in the Hispanic community. And I spent nine years there. So I started as a helper because I needed a teacher in special ed. So I was in the special ed room and just loved it. I mean, I kind of looked after this one little girl, Montserrat, and she was autistic, not on a higher. It's hard to tell. But she was very funny, just a very funny little girl. And I loved looking. I'd go to a class, push into her third grade class. It was fun. It was great. And then they kept me on as they said, well, how about tutoring? They needed tutors for kids having a hard time reading. So I'd have a class of six. And we do, you know, I do all day from kindergarten to grade four. And once I had a fifth grader who needed help reading, but I would do that. And then they needed a third grade teacher because they didn't have enough teachers. Teachers, they just never have enough out there. And so I started teaching third grade. They said, oh, Sandra, don't worry about it. This is principal. Don't worry about it. We're a tier one school. No one wants to come here and we won't get a teacher. Of course, six weeks later they did. And so I went back to tutoring. And I said, well, nuts to this, I went back to school after 38 years and got my teaching certificate license. And that took me because they considered University of Toronto here as more. My degree is more like a conservatory certificate. So I was lacking 18 credits in science, social studies and math. So I had to do 18 credits as well as all the other credits I needed. So I was doing. And then I got showstoppers at the Wynn, which ran, I think a couple years. So I was teaching school, going to school and playing a show at night. And then Bobby was sick. So it's. You do things, you know, that's what's on your plate. So you just do it. Right? [01:18:38] Speaker A: So that's a big plate. [01:18:40] Speaker B: Yeah. So he passed away during COVID in 2020, July 1st. And my mother had. I just got to see my mother a week before she died in 2018. And then I went back to school. That was July 1st. I was back in school. A month later. But what are you going to do? Stay home, look at the walls? [01:19:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess some would. [01:19:08] Speaker B: Yeah. But it was. No, I taught online. That was it. Second grade online. Horrible. Just horrible. Please stop jumping on the bed. What do you mean? Your mother wants to wash your hair. Now it's math time. Go for lunch. Don't come back. [01:19:28] Speaker A: I don't think from what I know teachers and education has really recovered from that time yet. [01:19:33] Speaker B: You know, I went back and I was in the classroom two more years. Yes. Because I retired September 2022. And I just. Between everything else, I just couldn't do it. And I decided to move it sort of tried to move back to Canada. Too expensive. So I went, well, favorite city ever is Chicago. [01:19:58] Speaker A: And that's what brought you back here? [01:20:00] Speaker B: That's what brought me back here, yeah. [01:20:03] Speaker A: Interesting. What do you now you're retired as a teacher, but you're still playing horn. [01:20:11] Speaker B: I'm not playing professionally. Okay. So this goes back while I'm still in Vegas. Apparently I had headaches. Started when I was about 35. I had chronic headaches and pain in neck and head. And just before Bobby died, I was supposed to actually have surgery July 1, the day he died, to replace three disks and fuse four vertebrae because it was a stenosis of the spine hereditary. Thank you, mother. And I just called my brother about three weeks before. I said, you know, I think I have to cancel it. You know, it's one of those gut things. So I did. It's a good thing because I. He basically passed out, went unconscious on the way to getting lymphatic therapy because chemo and radiation just, you know, you know what it does. So got him to the hospital because of COVID I couldn't go in, so I had to go home. So I'm sitting home twiddling my thumbs and my daughter in law, Larryn, the amazing woman, she is just, she just knows what to do. She said, don't. She calls the hospital, found out where he was, blah, blah, blah. So they put him in a room and they said, the doctor will call you. So they called at 7, said, I think you got to get. How fast can you get here? I said, well, I'm out the door and I got lost, of course. And they fit me up in hazmat total. I mean, the mask they put on me was excruciating. And that's what they were wearing for 12, 18 hour shifts. So I'm in full hazmat and I arrived on time. I got his son from Japan and Nick wanted to say goodbye. And it's. The man was sick and he just floated away. It was a beautiful thing to see, you know. And after all that getting back, I came to Chicago. And because of. I started a little bit, I subbed a couple times in the Lion King that is now so small. It always freaked me out because there's just nobody in the pit anymore. And I started on Les Mis. And this is the hard part for me in that we were sitting low, conductor up high. And I was told that he worked us really hard. There was a lot of rehearsal, and I've played this hundreds of times. And within a couple days, I got flashes of light. My headaches are horrible. I ended up bruising my lip. And I needed to take some shows off. And Corset did something with my head. And I was working with Pete Jerusa, bless him, sweetest man ever. And he just said, sandra, it's okay. Just keep playing. You'll be fine. You'll be fine. And I just. I just knew I couldn't come back. So that's how I left, you know, sort of my body decided for me. And unfortunately, it just, you know, it's. It's a very ragged ending to quite a lovely career. [01:23:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:24:00] Speaker B: But I have taken up pottery. I do hot yoga. And my mother taught me to sew when I was 8 years old. So I'm quite into sewing. I love making quilts. That sort of art has never left. And getting my hands dirty. And clay, you know, just. Well, happier than a pig and shit, as they say, to quote somebody. [01:24:29] Speaker A: Have you. Did you have any experience at all with that before, or you just with clay? [01:24:35] Speaker B: I think in high school with that great art teacher we had. I know I did clay because I still have a little figure that I'd done. And it was, of course, me last minute, you know, it's a sort of. I miss procrastination. And so I was down at probably three in the morning in my room at home and making this person. It's kneeling and she's got curly hair and her head's back and she's laughing. But I needed toothpicks to hold it together because the clay wasn't working. Of course, I put it in the kiln and it goes kapow. And the art teacher, he pieced it all together again. So I still have it. But that's the thing I have. But I always wanted to work on the wheel. [01:25:21] Speaker A: So that's what you do now, though, where you throw pots on the wheel. [01:25:24] Speaker B: Yeah, throwing the wheel. And actually, you got to sign up for classes pretty quickly at Lille Street. That's where I go. And the class I wanted was full because I forgot to sign up. So I'm doing a hand building class now, which is all, you know, as kids, you start with rolling coils and. [01:25:47] Speaker A: Pinch pots and you cut a piece. [01:25:49] Speaker B: Out and it's just delightful. I'm having a great time, so. And I have a wheel at home. [01:25:57] Speaker A: Do you? [01:25:58] Speaker B: I do. [01:25:59] Speaker A: Okay. [01:26:00] Speaker B: I'm spoiled. I have a wheel, I guess, that's. [01:26:01] Speaker A: Quieter than practicing horn for your neighbors, hopefully. [01:26:06] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. That's a whole long other story. [01:26:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:26:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:11] Speaker A: So. Well, so. And you've got grandkids, grand dogs, your own dog, my own dog. It sounds like you have a pretty full world going on still. [01:26:23] Speaker B: I do. It's lovely. [01:26:24] Speaker A: Well, I've just had the greatest time chatting with you. I learned a lot. [01:26:29] Speaker B: Oh, yes. [01:26:30] Speaker A: And some of it was interesting, you. [01:26:32] Speaker B: Know, I guess some you'll cut out. [01:26:34] Speaker A: That's right. I mean, so I think we'll get beyond the 20 minute mark or something. But, yeah, no, it's been a pleasure chatting with you and thank you, Sean. Thanks for sharing with me. I. I'm grateful for all my guests who are willing to sit here, here with me and, well, share part of what our lives are, you know? [01:26:52] Speaker B: Yeah. It's sort of. You go, would you do this? I'm going, okay. And then I'm thinking, oh, what am I going to say? Of course, I've just chatted for, like, hours. [01:27:01] Speaker A: And most, most musicians, like, we're not good at talking. [01:27:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:08] Speaker A: Like planned talking. So everyone gets nervous and then we sit down. Then I'm like, no, no, no. It's like we're in the pit and we see each other every day. And of course we talk a lot. It's just like when you think, oh, they're gonna have an interview. [01:27:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [01:27:23] Speaker A: And yet musicians are artists, too. We have interesting, interesting lives, interesting stories, unusual for different than other people on the planet. That's sort of what my. Why I wanted to do this podcast. I think those of us that don't usually get interviewed have a lot. A lot we can tell. [01:27:47] Speaker B: Yeah, well. [01:27:48] Speaker A: And a lot we shouldn't. [01:27:49] Speaker B: Yes. Well, I sat at the back of an orchestra. You know, you're. You're just back there. [01:27:57] Speaker A: Exactly. So. But we're. We're important when we're important. [01:28:02] Speaker B: It's true. [01:28:04] Speaker A: So thanks again. [01:28:05] Speaker B: Thank you, Sean. [01:28:06] Speaker A: Okay. Well, isn't she lovely? Canadian, American. Sandra Donatelle, thanks for sitting down with me, and I really enjoyed the conversation. Hope you enjoyed listening in. So that's it for this episode of Chicago Musician. I hope to have several more episodes wafting out into the Ethereum sometime soon. You never know. In the meantime, I'm your host, Shawn Stengel. Be good out there. Stay safe. See you next time. [01:28:45] Speaker B: Did you say something about brownies? [01:28:48] Speaker A: Yes. Let's do it. Sa.